Friday, November 22, 2013

Reform Clause 1 – Feel Free To Annoy Me



His Grace wrote last week about the Government's plans for a new civil injunction to replace Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (Asbos), which amount to gross state interference with people’s private lives and basic freedoms. Home Secretary Theresa May aims to introduce wide-ranging new orders known as Ipnas (Injunctions to Prevent Nuisance and Annoyance), which will suppress anything deemed to be potentially annoying, however vague the justification. Yes, truly and incredibly, Christian preachers, harmless buskers and peaceful protesters could be driven off the streets – if not by the courts, by the over-zealous interpretation and application of this law by an imperious police force.

The House of Lords debated this Bill on Monday night, and Baroness Mallalieu QC delivered a bold and forthright speech against this proposed ‘nuisance and annoyance’ law.

The Christian Institute has announced the formation of a new campaign group, called ‘Reform Clause 1: Feel Free To Annoy Me’. It is a joint initiative of the Institute and the National Secular Society, with support from other civil liberty groups. We worked together to to get rid of 'insulting' from Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. We can do so again on this.

Being able to offend or annoy is one of the foundations of liberty. Freedom of speech must be tolerated, and everyone living in the United Kingdom must accept that they may be insulted about their own beliefs, or indeed be offended or annoyed, and that is something which they must simply endure, not least because some suffer fates far worse.

The Deputy Director of The Christian Institute, Simon Calvert, says the Bill presents "a real threat to public protest and free speech – including evangelism".

His Grace will let you know in due course how you may support the new Reform Clause 1 campaign. In the meantime, please pray against this draconian, illiberal and un-conservative legislation. The Christian Institute is developing an information hub for your convenience.

192 Comments:

Blogger David Hussell said...

Your Grace,
Thank you for keeping us informed.

Truly free speech and therefore democracy and justice is imperiled.

22 November 2013 09:12  
Blogger David B said...

Another issue on which we can stand united.

David

22 November 2013 09:23  
Blogger graham wood said...

Once again - an excellent post Cranmer.

Surely this must qualify as the most stupid, vindictive, risible, and gratuituously offensive proposal to emanate from this government - only on par with the same sex "marriage" Bill.

Have I got it right, that the countless annoying features of daily life over which we may have no control, may well be subject to legal objection by all and sundry - on a whim?
This is an example of narcissistic subjectivism at its ver worst.

Surely a charter for all self appointed grievance victims, for cranks, half- wits, and vexatious time wasters.
Very good speech by the lady Mallalieu in the H of L.
Plain common sense. What a shame our feckless politicians still come up with this mindless guff.

22 November 2013 10:16  
Blogger Len said...

Our Democracy is in real danger of being turned into a Dictatorship which will then be a 'vehicle' for those in power to have total control over the population.
Steps have already been taken to curtail free speech and freedom of expression by the use of the 'Political Correctness' agenda.
Our freedom is being constantly chipped away by increments as we are moved as if by some sort of sleight of hand from a free liberal society to one which draconian measures can be implimented without protest.
Far from being a 'liberal society' this' new society' we are being 'guided toward' will be one where the individual has little say other than to conform to whatever the Goverment agenda is.

22 November 2013 11:02  
Blogger Balaams Ass said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 November 2013 11:14  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack finds it most annoying and a big nuisance when people wanting to be elected keep putting leaflets through his door and knocking on his door for his vote. Will this be illegal? Also, when you're going about your business these people want to talk to you in the street and ask how you're going to vote? Will this be a crime too? Not only that, they go about in vans with loud speakers shouting out how good they are and how bad the others are. This will be a crime?

Happy Jack wants to ask how all this is any different to people telling others about God and people going from door to door selling things or telling people about Jesus? And what about selling the Big Issue or collecting for charity in the streets? As for busking, nobody would ever find Happy Jack annoying or irritating and so he's sure it will not affect him!

22 November 2013 11:20  
Blogger Dr Robert Warde said...

very good post your Grace, if this becomes law I know the first complaint I will apply to the courts for. A PM that never keeps a promise, ie vote on the in / out of EU. he is a constant annoyance.

22 November 2013 11:22  
Blogger Unknown said...

I have read about Ipnas previously, but was unaware it was looming - thank you for the update.

22 November 2013 11:49  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Well, Len & others, I describe our society as "Soft Stalinism" (soft=no gulags - yet) for good reason.

22 November 2013 12:06  
Blogger Corrigan said...

So, presumably, this law is being formulated to harrass Christians; however, might it be possible for Christians to use it to object to, say, a gay pride march?

22 November 2013 12:22  
Blogger David Hussell said...

John Thomas,

"Soft Stalinism" --- a precious phrase and very meaningful.

George Orwell's 1984 was just a tad early. Who would have thought that a Conservative led government would introduce such dangerous controls ?

22 November 2013 12:34  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Happy Jack said..

Well said, that fellow.

A Charter for vexatious mischief by the Stasi...and the politicians in this country state we are the exemplar of liberty..How they have got the nerve to lecture other nations is just plain laughable.

Blowers

22 November 2013 12:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Corrigan: "So, presumably, this law is being formulated to harrass Christians; however, might it be possible for Christians to use it to object to, say, a gay pride march?"

For sure. There are those in all walks of life who want to limit the freedom of others for their own personal reasons. Hopefully the majority will recognise that this is ultimately a threat to the freedom of everyone and try to stop it in its tracks.

22 November 2013 12:43  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Corrigan said...

"So, presumably, this law is being formulated to harrass Christians; however, might it be possible for Christians to use it to object to, say, a gay pride march?" or loud calls of muslims to worship and kneeling the the streets as and when?

The blessed interpretation of the equality act trumps ALL but especially Christianity, the faith of 'bigots/dinosaurs'!

Blofeld

22 November 2013 12:44  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

As one of our local church bell ringers, it would seem to me that anyone who doesn't like the sound, or is opposed to the church could claim that they are a Nuisance and Annoyance. In that there is a parade of shops opposite, several of which are owned by Muslims, it would seem that they could object to the bells and stop the ringing after a few hundred years.

22 November 2013 12:59  
Blogger Len said...

Free speech allows Christians to be called' bigots'. I would however rather have others the freedom to do so than to have that freedom removed.

“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”(George Orwell)

22 November 2013 13:01  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Laws such as this are never equally enforced. They are used to suppress unpopular factions. I will say again however that there is a difference between annoying content in speech and annoying behavior used to facilitate that speech. Restrictions on the latter could pass a neutrality test.

carl

22 November 2013 13:09  
Blogger Frater minor said...

Anything that has the whole-hearted support of both the Christian Institute and the National Secular Society has to be interesting!



Frater minor

22 November 2013 13:27  
Blogger IanCad said...

What is happening to our country?
How can such an act even be considered?

Remembrance Day has just passed.
Some, perhaps rashly, say that our troops died to maintain our liberties.

If that is indeed so then they died in vain.

And Yes! I do regard Theresa May as a spooky harridan.

22 November 2013 14:20  
Blogger Corrigan said...

So, DanJ0, does that mean that you oppose the legislation in its entirety, or support it for as long as it's pushing those you don't like off the streets?

22 November 2013 14:30  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

These are just grounds upon which to stifle opinion, beliefs, speech and debate - such as in not approved of by the State or pressure groups it is beholder to or afraid of.

Lets start that list:-

Muslims
Gays
Feminists
Immigrants
Europhiles

...care to add?

It's so transparent.

And we all know where it will end.

Which is VERY SCARY as so do the lawmakers!

22 November 2013 14:56  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Remember the Macpherson Report's definition of a racist incident?

"...any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."

Best of motives in the wake of the Lawrence murder, but it relies an awful lot on a) the integrity and b) the correct perception of said victim and other person. Suppose, just suppose, you happened not to like someone... You see the temptation?

Anyway, that was back in 1999. Here, in 2013, we seem to have its first cousin. (If not an even closer relative.)

22 November 2013 17:11  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
I was going to mention 1984 but I see David has already.
There is a saying for an alliance like Christian Institute & NSS.
'You need a long spoon to sup with the Devil'.

22 November 2013 17:23  
Blogger Anglican said...

The far-seeing G. K. Chesterton wrote in 1921, “It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.”

22 November 2013 17:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Anglican @ 17:27

Maybe that's why politicians abolished the death sentence.

22 November 2013 17:30  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

The tail that's wagging this particular dog is probably the fear of offending you-know-who: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2058935/Police-advise-Christian-preachers-to-leave-Muslim-area-of-Birmingham.html

22 November 2013 17:35  
Blogger David Hussell said...

For how long can the shattered remnants of what was formerly understood as western culture survive in a post-Christian and post - democratic age? Stop open and free exchange of ideas, often achieved through debate, and you have a dead society. For is that not where we are heading, in this omnibus labeled "The Cultural Suicide Bus", unless the clanking runaway can be stopped. The main problem is that the key means of communication and persuasion, often subliminally it seems, are at the behest of the euthanasia enthusiasts.

22 November 2013 17:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



This proposed legislation smacks of another EU attempt to foster “harmony” in the European soviet union.

Terms as Home Secretary are somewhat brief, thank God, but a hired EU apparatchik can live splendidly for years on a momentous salary with a most splendid pension thrown in. And of course, there are no annoying elections to fight. Could the present incumbent be looking ahead ? No one can say. We really don’t know.

And this legislation can’t come too early. We are about to be ‘settled’ by upwards of 50,000 Roma, and that’s not a one off. That’s PER YEAR. And the government admit there is absolutely nothing they can do about it, even if they were minded to. No doubt, the standard Roma behaviour will generate protest, but protest will be now be strictly forbidden. How damned convenient for the Quislings that run this country on Brussels’ behalf.

Among the first to feel the Roma effect will be the Social Services and the NHS, the latter probably the prime mover when it comes to attracting this crowd of chancers. Can we expect departmental chiefs to be silenced by IPNAs should they have the temerity to point out their systems are on their knees ?




22 November 2013 17:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Frater minor. Anything that has the whole-hearted support of both the Christian Institute and the National Secular Society has to be interesting!

You’d better add the homosexuals in there as well. And not just for Gay Pride marches to continue unabated. One notes on Pink News the blighters are up in arms over another piece of impending government legislation. The abolition of pornography on the net. This of course includes the dodgy smut they watch, and need, so it may be said. A rather decent initiative, which hopefully will put an end to exploitation in that disgusting industry, but alas, a step too far for those who live in queer street. And their equal rights trump the rest of our equal rights including the victims, of course. So in the circumstances. one does feel yet another march coming on…

And we haven’t even mentioned the poppy burners of Luton yet. What about their right to outrage us…





22 November 2013 17:56  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! It seems to me that the greatest threat to liberty and democracy comes from our legislators...but then if you have a Parliament in permanent sitting they are bound to keep churning out increasingly obscure and authoritarian laws, as they have to be seen to be doing something. I fear the time for protest is increasingly at hand...and I don't mean writing letters! As for you, Happy Jack, Barchester welcomes buskers, so feel free to strum outside the West Door of the Cathedral whenever you feel like it.

22 November 2013 18:16  
Blogger David B said...

European legislation often arouses the ire of HG and I think the bulk of my fellow commenters here.

Like much else in life, though, I see our European adventure as having swings as well as the roundabouts which, sometimes I think with more justice than others, these columns seize on.

I wonder - and perhaps some people with legal qualifications can help me out here, because I don't know the answer and am genuinely curious - whether some European or perhaps some other international obligation might be grounds to get misuse of the proposed legislation, or perhaps the legislation itself, overturned.

David

22 November 2013 18:27  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This is the slippery slope in action towards a Stalinist state which New Labour started with their Anti Social Behaviour Order, and it shows all parties are of the same ilk now. Hopefully UKIP have something different to offer than the state gagging groups and individuals that are not compliant with or acceptable to their agenda for an EU superstate.

What needs to be addressed are the underlying causes of the anti social behaviour. It's all down to too much immigration and the decline of Christianity here.
Now more than ever our Christian culture needs to stand up against this strong criticism from all angles that it is receiving.
You don't have to gag people, just organise them. I would like to see more public debates. Get groups to air their views and be criticised in the public arena. Instead of all this cheap “reality” TV there should be more discussion programs and interactive TV. Not the stage managed politically correct stuff the BBC airs but nitty gritty stuff that criticises and questions muslims, feminists, gays, immigrants and other ungrateful minorities.

22 November 2013 18:44  
Blogger The PrangWizard of England said...

The effect of this will be that the Police will not attempt to catch the truly offensive, being too afraid, but they will pick on soft targets, that is we, as usual, if we protest and speak out against these and similar measures.

Britain is no longer a 'free' country. We are oppressed by an Elitist government who are losing legitimacy.

22 November 2013 19:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Corrigan: "So, DanJ0, does that mean that you oppose the legislation in its entirety, or support it for as long as it's pushing those you don't like off the streets?"

I'm a libertarian-leaning liberal in the style of JS Mill. What do you think?

22 November 2013 20:07  
Blogger Corrigan said...

I'm a libertarian-leaning liberal in the style of JS Mill. What do you think?

I assume that means you will tolerate that which you find tolerable and no more.

22 November 2013 20:51  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

What about you, Corrigan? Would you try to use it to stop Gay Pride marches?

22 November 2013 20:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

By the way, your original statement "So, presumably, this law is being formulated to harrass Christians [...]" is tinfoil hat territory. ASBOs were created to grant power to tackle the sort of persistant anti-social behaviour that blights neighbourhoods. IPNAs follow on from that. Of course, there will be people who try to use the powers for purposes which were not originally intended and there will almost certainly be function creep, as we have seen with the Public Order Act with some preachers in recent times, though it is worth noting that one of them won damages from the police as a result.

22 November 2013 21:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

ASBOs are a superb tool. One blighter in Cheltenham, a career shoplifter, was warned that if he set foot in the high street, he would be shot on sight...

But you cannot improve on them. Just leave be...

22 November 2013 21:08  
Blogger Nick said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

22 November 2013 21:19  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Marie

"What needs to be addressed are the underlying causes of the anti social behaviour. It's all down to too much immigration and the decline of Christianity here"

Simplistic solutions. So we get rid of the immigrants and we make everyone be a nominal Christian. When that does not work what do we do? Perhaps we look at the justice system? The tax system, the private companies ripping us off for basic services. Or the state monopolies like the NHS and privatise further?

The root cause of antisocial behaviour are complex but you have hit it on the head to some extent. The family and the community were a check on antisocial behaviour. However, to a large extent these have been deliberately replaced by the state.

What is needed is freedom, Religion can only succeed in a free society and when it is established virtuous behavour becomes more of the norm, therefore if the state is wise it will release its grip and you will get more freedom and the virtuous cycle starts again.

The reverse is a lack of freedom, that leads to restriction on religion leading to a loss of virtue, more crime etc and so the state steps in, leading to a loss of freedom, and so the cycle in reverse stars again. This is the opposite of the virtuous cycle (call it the wickedness cycle?) and it what the UK has been in since the 1980s and possibly earlier.

The only way to break it is to trim the state, by this I mean mainly the laws. We have been trimming the state infrastructure without trimming the laws first and we wonder why we still have the problems that we do.

Freedom first. I would abolish 70% of our current laws over a period of 5 years and also lower the school leaving age for those that don't want an education. I think that by 14 many have realised that education will never be as beneficial as work. (e.g.John Major left school at 16) Kids can have sex at 16 (soon to be 14) they should at least be able to decide if they want to stay at school or not for themselves!

phil



22 November 2013 22:10  
Blogger Nick said...

I'm sorry, but has Theresa May lost all common sense or is she just not paid enough? IPNAS (Idiotic Policy Not Adequately Scrutinised) is just another half-baked government idea that someone will have to repeal in the future, along with HS2, and (hopefully) the perversion of marriage act.

In the meantime, I am preparing a list of things I find annoying that (presumably) will be criminalised under the reform...

(1) Anti-democratic Government ministers
(2) The BBC
(3) Politicians who break promises / election pledges
(4) Politicians acting like nannies for the nation
(5) The EU
(6) Christmas music in shops
(7) Loud MP3 players in railway carriages
(8) Drunks in railway carriages
(9) Unreliable train services
(10) Gay pride marches
(11) Teaching school children about homosexuality
(12) Abortions
(13) The BBC
(14) Junk mail
(15) HS2
(16) Road Tolls
(17) Putting the clocks forward / back
(18) Nick Clegg
(19) Vince Cable
(20) MPs wasting taxpayers money on outrageous expenses
(21) Commercialisation of Christmas
(22) The BBC
(23) The EU
(24) Gas / Electricity / Water Bills
(25) MPs wasting oxygen by talking (and in some cases breathing)
(26) ‘Green’ taxes
(27) The BBC
(28) The EU


I'm still working on a list of "potentially annoying" things, though I expect it will be an umbrella list that includes any possible future policy by Theresa May

22 November 2013 22:12  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector

"ASBOs are a superb tool. One blighter in Cheltenham, a career shoplifter, was warned that if he set foot in the high street, he would be shot on sight"

Shot on sight? Nonsense. We should have rules of engagement for shoplifters. The state should tell us what the rules are, how shoplifters should be treated, what the penalty is for anyone hurting s shoplifter, the penalty should be especially harsh if the crime is aggravated, so e.g. shooting gay shoplifters would be especially bad. Welsh shoplifters being minority group should be offered special protection and understanding and only be challenged in Welsh, by a native Welsh speaker, which every store in Europe should be obliged to employ.

Phil


22 November 2013 22:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil Roberts. Kids can have sex at 16 (soon to be 14)

Not at all !

Tatchell is on Pink News today, arguing for a lowering to that age. For Christ’s sake, don’t listen to homosexual men when it comes to the age of consent...

22 November 2013 22:30  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Nick

I see you have put the EU down three times.

The way things are going with Cameron's crew, EU laws are starting to seem sensible!

No I must have got that wrong, our politicians cannot be more barmy that EU legislators?

Surely not?

Phil

22 November 2013 22:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Phil Roberts. We used to lock shoplifters up, but then we thought we’d try marvellous mass immigration, and now there is no room in prison for the common or garden white thief...

22 November 2013 22:35  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Inspector.

It is going to be 14. Precisely because of what you said.

P T wants it.

And how long before it is 12 and also your kids are taken away for your homophobic reaction to the advances of middle aged men to your kids?

Phil

22 November 2013 22:38  
Blogger Nick said...

Inspector

Been on PN again?

Tut tut!

Stay away from that garbage - you know it makes sense

22 November 2013 22:47  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Nick. It’s a filthy job, but someone must take the role of sentinel.

22 November 2013 22:50  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, with everything being said on here Happy Jack almost missed your kind invitation. Jack would never busk so near a church as it would be rude and he has been told "its not the done thing". Happy Jack would be pleased to sing songs to people as they went in and left church without any collection.

22 November 2013 23:14  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Phil @ 22:10

“Simplistic solutions. So we get rid of the immigrants and we make everyone be a nominal Christian. When that does not work what do we do? Perhaps we look at the justice system? The tax system, the private companies ripping us off for basic services. Or the state monopolies like the NHS and privatise further?”

No, of course it's more complex, I didn't want to go into details, but excess immigration of far differing cultures from ours, some very primitive indeed think they can carry on their own lifestyles in our country without having to adapt at all. A lot of these state laws have been created to try and cope with these wildly differing immigrant cultures whilst accommodating their whims and the rest of us have to suffer.

I agree the state has no business in our private lives and its laws are far too copious and complicated that they need to be cut down to allow more freedoms.
There are some things though that should be state controlled and they are NHS, Railways, Energy, Water and Royal Mail. The basic requirements for human survival and growth. The state should have a duty of care to it's people to provide these at a reasonable cost so that we can get on with the tasks of keeping the private sector economy going with inventions, innovations, and new industries.

If Christian culture was better supported and promoted by the government, family values and all, it would send the message to immigrants here that there is no room for backward behaviour, and that whilst able to practice and talk about their religion it would be secondary to Christianity. Also if we brought back stricter sentences and mean them, along with the death penalty and mean it too for terrorists then they might think twice about coming here.




23 November 2013 01:37  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Sadly it seems that once again, the urge to be 'seen to be doing something' is driving Parliament to meddle yet again in matters that they neither understand, nor have a solution for, but, in the interests of justifying their continued existence, will meddle. The Law of Unintended Consequences will strike deep and hard I think.

23 November 2013 05:55  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Marie

"There are some things though that should be state controlled and they are NHS, Railways, Energy, Water and Royal Mail. The basic requirements for human survival and growth. The state should have a duty of care to it's people to provide these at a reasonable cost so that we can get on with the tasks of keeping the private sector economy going with inventions, innovations, and new industries"

Very sensible in theory. However, the problem is that Christians are retreating from many areas of employment and public life because of an increasing clash of ethics and an intolerance of Christian worldview

So for example it is becoming increasingly difficult for Christians to consider careers in Local Government, the Police, the NHS, teaching etc due to the requirements that are placed on them by their contract of employment.

Similarly Christians are less and less likely to run voluntary organisations or offer themselves as potential foster or adoptive parents, due to the requirements to promote the new state "religion" of equality.

The early Christians seemed to support and look after each other first and foremost. They did of course extend this fellowship and support to others who did not believe in a limited way and it was considered barmy by the Pagans at the time.

Perhaps it is time for Christians to change. E.g. currently I employ people regardless of their religious affiliation, gender, sexual orientation etc and we employ people who have the best skills both personal and professional to fill the role. Perhaps it is time for a more subtle approach, selecting Christians where applicants are broadly equally matched and also using Christian suppliers where possible and sending your kids only to overtly Christian Schools.

I know Carl says it is impossible for employers to allow for conscience clauses in employment, but the reality is that it happens all the time in every good business.





23 November 2013 06:28  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector:"Tatchell is on Pink News today, arguing for a lowering to that age. For Christ’s sake, don’t listen to homosexual men when it comes to the age of consent..."

Ironically, I've been arguing elsewhere against the recent suggestion (not Tatchell's) about lowering it. That's the one Cameron also rebuffed immediately.

23 November 2013 06:50  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector:"Nick. It’s a filthy job, but someone must take the role of sentinel."

That's like employing kids to be security guards in a sweet shop.

23 November 2013 06:53  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Phil R @ 06:28

Excellent point: since we seem to be heading back to the value systems of ancient Rome.

We'll know we've arrived if things like 'The Running Man' or 'The Hunger Games' stop being fiction.

23 November 2013 07:24  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Phil Roberts,

I don't disagree with your general argument at all but is these any evidence that Christians are with drawing from the employment areas you mention ? I agree that the pressures are there now.
And I agree we need to rethink how we, Christians, relate to society and nurture ourselves, because at the moment the game is set up for us to lose almost every time.

23 November 2013 09:24  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

David

"any evidence that Christians are with drawing from the employment areas you mention ?"

I doubt if there is any hard data. However, think of it this way. If you were 18 and you were choosing a career or a Uni course. Where would you chose to work.

Free or thought slave?

I think the most anti Christian of the list is the Police. Which is of course is not so surprising.

Phil

23 November 2013 10:20  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Phil,

OK, so it's conjecture, but one very likely to be correct, I agree.

Christians have often found themselves in a cultural environment that was intolerant of the Christian narrative. In each such age they found ways to not merely survive, but prosper, in all senses.
Post-modernism has now come upon us exceedingly quickly and we need to search to find ways to firstly, survive and prosper, and secondly to reach out to the wider cultural context and prove afresh to this generation, and its successors, the timeless unchanging value and truth of the Gospel.
One denomination, or great mind, needs a breakthrough, led by the Spirit, and then the others can benefit from that revelation.
New Monasticism is seen by some as a possible way forward. This is, as you may know, based around families, and not celibacy, thank goodness I say !
You are, I am sure, right to conjecture that young committed Christians must surely be selecting their education and training, with an eye to future careers, in the knowledge of the ever more strident thought police, now very forceful in Government related occupations.
Are you aware of The Wilberforce Academy ? It is, I believe, a useful and worthwhile initiative. We need more of that sort of thing I think.

23 November 2013 10:49  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Corrigan,

This monstrous law shows how far Mr Cameron really is "the heir to Blair" . New Labour manufactured some 2,500 new criminal offences - many tending to stifle free expression..

I guess that this Bill is designed to make the enforcement of the new EU Framework Directive for the suppression of Intolerance more simple. They are intending that the law should itself be intolerant of intolerance!

"Xenophobia" ( undefined) is an arrestable offence for the purposes of the EU Arrest Warrant. Some years ago the EU agency which sniffs out these sorts of thought crimes said that opposition to the euro currency was "monetary xenophobia" . Even longer ago, an Advocate General of the EU Court of Justice gave the opinion that "Criticism of the EU is akin to blasphemy and could be restricted WITHOUT AFFECTING FREEDOM OF SPEECH" ( my emphasis). So it is easy to see the way things are tending
No government Bill goes forward without being checked for compatibility with existing and intended pending EU legislation.
Are they up to anything similar in the Dail?

23 November 2013 11:44  
Blogger The Justice of the Peace said...

As one who might have to sentence for breach of said legislative folly as per......"My Musings on Thursday".........your exposure of this to a wide audience is to be commended.

23 November 2013 11:52  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

David

I have learned quite a bit about The Wilberforce Academy over the last hour. Interesting to see the reaction from Oxford Students' Union, which was almost universally negative with lots of negative points to a brave Dr Snell who championed the right of free speech.

I was generally feeling disillusioned, until I read Dr Snell correcting a minor spelling mistake in he earlier post which could not possibly be offensive to anyone.

This also received a great deal of negative comments. So it seems that the students of Oxford the intellectual giants of our nation, do not need to actually read what you have written to disagree with you!

Phil

23 November 2013 12:08  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Corrected like my typo

in he earlier post should read in his earlier post.

Obviously typos are grossly offensive to the LGB community!

23 November 2013 12:10  
Blogger Lady Anne said...

Hmm. Now if I was to find, say, a gay pride march "annoying", and reported it, could the police (or the gay pride marchers) find ME annoying (on the basis I wasn't politically correct), and arrest me?

23 November 2013 14:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Yes, Lady Anne, for you would have committed a hate crime. No wonder our resident tame homosexual is keeping somewhat quiet on this massive loss of liberty, though whether JS Mill would agree with him is debatable...

23 November 2013 14:22  
Blogger The Justice of the Peace said...

As I understand it the parameters are yet to be set by the courts

23 November 2013 14:30  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Happy Jack asks if buskers collecting money annoy you? Would you ban them? Or just homosexual, evangelical ones or maybe even Romanian ones?

23 November 2013 15:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "No wonder our resident tame homosexual is keeping somewhat quiet on this massive loss of liberty, though whether JS Mill would agree with him is debatable..."

It's unclear to me whether you're actually in favour of ASBOs but perhaps you can outline the key differences between an ASBO and the proposed IPNA?

23 November 2013 15:39  
Blogger Nick said...

Happy Jack

I think anybody who complained to the police about buskers would hae to be so warped and vindictive that one should feel a bit sorry for them.

The one exception I would make to this is anybody playing the EU "anthem", that wonderful theme of Beethoven, hijacked by a monster of cultural terrorism.

23 November 2013 15:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Jack, what’s this about wanting to ban buskers, not this man. Or gay pride marches. If those characters want to march down the street, good luck to them.

Now yes, ban Romanians. The best place by far for Romanian gypsies is, wait for it, Romania. Do explain the benefits to this country having these leeches around...

23 November 2013 16:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0, ASBOs are a good thing. Why are they being replaced with what is, as the JP pointed out earlier, an unknown quantity...

23 November 2013 16:48  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Why thank you very much Nick. Happy Jack is pleased with your kind reply.

Inspector, do you agree?

23 November 2013 16:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'm thinking you don't really know the differences but are just going with the flow here.

23 November 2013 16:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

...and you do ?

23 November 2013 17:07  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

I am willing to side with Peter Tatchell and Richard Dawkins if necessary to stop this tyrrany, including getting arrested, perhaps for reading the Bible aloud outside a police station.

The list of things that irritate and annoy me is very long indeed.............however I'm just guessing that somehow none of the things on MY list will count. Just a wild guess.

23 November 2013 17:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, in the draft bill the standard of proof has been lowered, the test of anti-social behaviour has been weakened and its scope broadened, breaches are handled differently, more agencies can apply for them, and the safeguards see weaker. There's also some flexibility for religion but it's not clear to me how that is likely to be applied. Regarding your claim that I'm "keeping somewhat quiet" about it, I think the ASBO concept is flawed but this is much worse as far as I am concerned. I have some issues with the other instruments in the draft bill too.

23 November 2013 17:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The religious flexibility thing is this:

"(5) Prohibitions and requirements in an injunction under this section must, so far
as practicable, be such as to avoid—
(a) any conflict with the respondent’s religious beliefs;"

23 November 2013 17:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Also, regarding street preachers, I think I was clear enough on the two Tony Miano threads a few months ago where I stand there.

23 November 2013 17:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0, a fellow thanks you for your précis.

All we need to do now is to discover the author(s)’ identity. Trip to Europe anyone ?


23 November 2013 17:45  
Blogger IanCad said...

Phil Roberts @ 22:10

Absolutely! get them into the workplace.

Two things will need to be done:

1. Get rid of the minimum wage laws.
2. Get rid of the Health and Safety emasculators.

Humans learn safety only through pain and suffering.

23 November 2013 18:07  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Phil

When I worked in the Civil Service for the first half of the 90s Christians were ridiculed and laughed at by some colleagues but allowed their say. We had a few born agains in our office and one of them did prayers and hands on healing in the breaks for anyone who wanted it, there was healthy office banter and religious debates amongst the staff.

We had black Christians who were also very devout and lovely people. Their Church would make the sandwiches from the left over bread and donations from local businesses for the Harlow Chocolate Run charity that fed the homeless in London which I took part in. Other cultural Christians in the office raised money for local charities including the Choc. Run which was able to buy bigger flasks. Christians tend to pull a society together.
I doubt very much if these religious and good activities would be allowed in the same offices now, and that's such a shame and so wrong.

“Perhaps it is time for Christians to change. E.g. currently I employ people regardless of their religious affiliation, gender, sexual orientation etc and we employ people who have the best skills both personal and professional to fill the role. Perhaps it is time for a more subtle approach, selecting Christians where applicants are broadly equally matched and also using Christian suppliers where possible and sending your kids only to overtly Christian Schools.”

I think you're right Phil, it is time for the subtle approach that will ensure Christians have a chance of survival. There would be no strange religious needs to accommodate so better for continuity of business I would have thought.

23 November 2013 18:10  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Phil, Marie 1797,

"it is time for the subtle approach"

I agree. I never thought that I would say that but things have degenerated so far, against us, so quickly, that we either suffer and lose leverage or do something. Other groups, which I shan't name, have been favouring themselves for years, are flourishing as a result. "Keep it in-house", could become the survive and flourish plan, not ideal but pragmatic. OK there's mission too, which is vitally important, and that could exist alongside the "subtle approach", needed for education of the young and careers/jobs/businesses which we all need, for our whole lives.
Because Christianity has been the cultural norm we still expect it to be, a few years ago anyway, broadly supported, then, more recently we expected it to be accepted, but now increasingly one experiences sideways looks or even hostility, so your suggestions are a way forward, perhaps not ideal, but certainly necessary. Certainly this deserves serious consideration within the Christian community.

23 November 2013 18:35  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! Who would have thought freedom of speech in our green and pleasant land would be threatened, nay diminished, by our Mother of Parliaments. No doubt they are doing as they are told by the EU-vil Empire. Here in Barchester we are busy preparing for the arrival of the Roma-folk, whom we are told are about to descend upon us like a swarm of locusts. The turd on the street is something we will not countenance. I have organised brushes and brooms on every street corner, along with poop-scoops and bottles of Vim. One wonders whether the proposed authoritarian legislation will protect us, but I fear it will protect those who defecate, steal and fornicate in our streets from the righteous indignation of indigenous folk. It's a topsy turvy world and no mistake.

23 November 2013 18:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Mrs Proudie, having barely survived the negro revolt in Gloucester two years ago, the Inspector fears that slipping on gypsy defecate will see the end of him...

23 November 2013 18:52  
Blogger Nick said...

"...One wonders whether the proposed authoritarian legislation will protect us.."

Mrs Proudie, it is more likely you will be arrested for Roma-phobia, so my advice is to barricade yourselves in your homes complete with fully-charged chamber pots ready to discharge from an upstaors window onto the Thought Police below in the street.

23 November 2013 18:54  
Blogger The Explorer said...

David H @ 18:35

Hear, hear!

A First-century solution for what threatens to become a First-century situation.

23 November 2013 19:00  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

IanCad


"1. Get rid of the minimum wage laws.
2. Get rid of the Health and Safety emasculators.

Humans learn safety only through pain and suffering"

I was trying to remember if anyone was paid on min wage. I think the min wage I pay works out at £16.67 per hour.

23 November 2013 19:05  
Blogger Nick said...

Rambling Steve Appleseed said:

"...I am willing to side with Peter Tatchell and Richard Dawkins if necessary to stop this tyrrany, including getting arrested, perhaps for reading the Bible aloud outside a police station.."

Steve, my only problem with this is that it is Dawkins' and Tattchell's ilk who have brought about this sorry state of affairs. I for one would not stand shoulder-to-shoulder with people who are declared enemies of just about everything I believe in.

23 November 2013 19:10  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

IanCad

You have a point about health and safety. However, I think we will need to take some risks if we are to regain freedom

23 November 2013 19:33  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

The Inspector's behaviour in keeping a watchful eye on a degenerate publication is nothing like a child in a sweet shop. If that argument were true then certain hostile eavesdroppers and interlopers who insist on trolling THIS blog would have to be regarded as closet christians, or even as having a potentially civilised side...which is not plausible.
So, Inspector, do you think the age of consent is going to be lowered, and could there be well-funded "lobbying" going on?

23 November 2013 21:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh c'mon, he's got a sweet tooth, metaphorically speaking, and poor resistance to temptation. He'd start by licking a lollypop or two at the start of his shift and by the end of the night he'd be gorging himself on chocolate starfish. You know I'm right.

23 November 2013 21:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Anyway, it was Professor John Ashton of the Faculty of Public Health who raised the age of consent issue recently and got into the news as a result. Tatchell simply responded to that.

23 November 2013 21:47  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

The Explorer

I think it goes something like this?

"We (the government)keep them in control by fear. The only thing stronger than fear is hope, so it is wise for us (the government) to give them a little hope for the future. Too much hope however, is dangerous"

The Hunger Games

You see I was paying attention! So what is our "little hope" to give us back our freedom that the Lib/lab/con alliance has and is taking away?

UKIP? I think UKIP is just our "little hope".

They are certainly no real danger to the Lib/lab/con alliance. However, the public thinks they might be and so they serve a useful purpose!

Phil




23 November 2013 21:49  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I hear on the BBC news the Attorney General Dominic Grieve now apologising for telling the truth about Pakistani communities' corrupt behaviours.
It's appalling that nobody can voice a warning or even an opinion about any group of foreigners or minority group these days without being shouted down and gagged by someone making a complaint.
Why don't the Pakistani communities come out and face up to their dodgy behaviour or prove that corruption is not rife amongst them? It's dodgy by our standards but not by theirs I guess.

23 November 2013 22:34  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Ian Cad / Explorer

If we divide the social security budget by the number of unemployed everybody could be employed on a 40 hour week with 12 weeks holiday at £15 an hour and we would still save 1/3 of the budget.

Better still give me 5% of the budget. I will save you 2 billion and give everyone who is unemployed the dignity and option of a decent well paid job that will benefit society.

Now that sort of talk is called "too much hope" and is the dangerous sort of hope.

Start saying things like that and see how fast you are ridiculed and sidelined. Make no mistake, giving people back their dignity and self respect is dangerous talk to our leaders.

Why?

If people get their dignity and self respect back they might start taking their responsibilities to each other seriously and we certainly cannot have that, because we have worked hard for many years to get people to worship the god of selfishness. Even on a Sunday.

Phil

23 November 2013 22:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Dear Julia, lowering the age of consent was not a Conservative party manifesto item, and one is sure that Cameron would give a ‘cast iron’ promise that he would not allow it. So, God help us then. Maybe he will support it ‘because he is a Conservative’. Handy phrase that, don’t you think ?

DanJ0 a closet Christian ? Interesting thought. May well be, as he admits to being a closet homosexual at work, and hangs around Christian sites debasing himself. Obviously doesn’t have the confidence to come out – hard to believe of a keyboard bully. Lets just hope the bugger isn’t considering the priesthood, what !



23 November 2013 22:56  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Phil R @ 21:49

Agreed, but more sophisticated than my own thoughts.

You had suggested using the tactics of the early Christians, and I was saying we might find ourselves back in their social situation: eg easy abortion, same-sex marriage (Nero), forced subordination of one's own god to Emperor worship.

We're still lacking the equivalent of the Arena: but 'The Hunger Games' imagines what the modern equivalent would be if the old arena spirit were combined with modern communications. Hence my reference.

Thought-provoking comments from you on this thread. Thank you.

23 November 2013 23:33  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Don't worry, Inspector. Nobody here believes what the troll mutters about you. Nobody believes his grubby little messages - he is just describing himself. As usual.
Don't let him bully you!

24 November 2013 00:58  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

@ Graham "Surely this must qualify as the most stupid, vindictive, risible, and gratuituously offensive proposal to emanate from this government "...
Well it's a difficult choice isn't it?

24 November 2013 00:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie:"Why don't the Pakistani communities come out and face up to their dodgy behaviour or prove that corruption is not rife amongst them?"

The burden of proof is on Grieve to justify the strength of his comments. This was about vote rigging, wasn't it? If that's the extent of it then he's probably gone too far. However, my first response when I heard the story was "Yes it may be offensive but is it true?"

24 November 2013 05:57  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I am surprised that a lawyer like Grieve, and law is meant to be evidence based, comes out with somethings as obviously incendiary as that without statistical information. He has access to the geographical spread of the allegations of vote rigging, I would have thought.

Backed by sound evidence, if it exists, the alleged problem would have to be, quite rightly, addressed.

24 November 2013 08:42  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Julia Gasper, @00.59

"Well it's a difficult choice isn't it?"

Absolutely !

A catalogue of errors if ever there was one.

24 November 2013 08:45  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Julia G @ 21:35

A good point.

I believe that St Paul opposed Christianity because he saw it as a deluded and dangerous sect. Then he had a vision of the risen Christ...

A Freudian reading is that, since there IS no risen Christ, there was no vision: Paul simply rationalised his own secret longings.

On such a basis, those involved in tackling child porn are not fighting a perceived evil: they are simply driven by their own hidden desires.

On such a basis, a religious sceptic visiting this site is not doing so to assess the mind of the enemy, to argue, and to expose error: he/she is drawn by a secret longing to become a Christian.

A problem of the Freudian theory, it seems to me, is the ease with which it can be turned against Freud himself: a rationalisation of his own attempt to run away from God.

24 November 2013 10:04  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "On such a basis, a religious sceptic visiting this site is not doing so to assess the mind of the enemy, to argue, and to expose error: he/she is drawn by a secret longing to become a Christian."

If you're up for jumping through hoops then there's a fiery one over there to try next.

24 November 2013 10:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I have to say that the 'information hub' linked in the article is actually pretty good for highlighting the issues in the draft bill. There's also this from the Home Affairs Select Committee:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmhaff/836/83605.htm

24 November 2013 10:18  
Blogger Julia Gasper said...

Thank you , Explorer, and David.
If you agree with me that Banjo's obscene personal bullying of the Inspector and other followers of this blog is intolerable, and Banjo ought to be blocked, then I suggest that you, like me, protest by ceasing to follow Cranmer as of today.
That is what I am going to do and if we all do it, then it just night have some effect. Adrian Hilton will be left chatting to Banjo for the foreseeable future.

http://juliagasper.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/is-paul-flowers-worst-labour-monster.html

24 November 2013 10:35  
Blogger Len said...

So much for free speech then?.
Plenty of' motes and beams' around at the moment?.

'Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

(The Inspector is rarely censored although he constantly makes outrageous comments)

24 November 2013 10:47  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 10:16

I don't follow what point you're making. That might be my fault. Then again...

A point a I DO follow is Rene Wellek's rejection of the Freudian explanation for literary creation: the problem with the theory is the very ease with which it can be applied.

By it, we can explain away Feuerbach (who influenced both Marx and Freud): annoyance at not getting the theological post he applied for.

24 November 2013 11:00  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Julia @ 10:35

I'm actually just in the process of RETURNING to Cranmer; circumstances in my life having righted themselves for the moment, after a difficult patch.

24 November 2013 11:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see the Law society has a statement about the test [1]

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/representation/government-parliamentary-affairs/current-bills/antisocial-behaviour-bill/documents/anti-social-behaviour-bill---final-statement-on-inpa

"The test was introduced by the Anti Social Behaviour Act in 2003 and, in the housing context, is widely understood and applied appropriately by the Judiciary and without malice. The second part of the test, which gives the Judge a wide discretion to consider all relevant factors before imposing an injunction, acts as a safeguard."

and

"The Society strongly suggests that the test is retained and that Judges are allowed to exercise their discretion and considerable experience in dealing with these matters. The test is already familiar to the courts and other partners working with families and offenders."

The problem I can see is that the case law is based on housing stuff whereas the potential reach of this draft bill is much wider than that such that we may be into Public Order territory and we already know that there have been problems there.

[1] From that Select Committee link:

"Two "thresholds" have developed for defining when behaviour becomes anti-social behaviour. ASB was first defined in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 as behaviour that is "likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress"—the stronger test. For housing-related issues, the Housing Act 1996 defined ASB as conduct "capable of causing nuisance or annoyance to any person" and/or the use of premises for unlawful purposes—the weaker test."

24 November 2013 11:07  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

David Hussell,

I haven't kept a dedicated file. There have been vote rigging cases against members of the three main parties. In all the ones I can recall there was a remarkably high "Mohammed quotient" amongst the names of the accused-all of whose other names suggested an Indian sub continental origin.

There were also reports of widespread corruption amongst police officers of similar origins in the Met. It was played down, of course, and one of he explanations offered was that they had come from "traditional, cash-based cultures". Quite.

24 November 2013 11:54  
Blogger IanCad said...

Julia Gasper wrote:

"---I suggest that you, like me, protest by ceasing to follow Cranmer as of today.--"

Hurty Feelings?? The OIG and Danjo. Ha Ha Ha!

If any two combatants on this blog need less help to slug it out than they do, then please name them.

Both of them dish it out and get it back. They've been on this blog for a long time and are part of what makes it so good.

Both of them are more than capable of defending themselves.

It is utterly astonishing that, on this thread, concerning civil liberties, you should attempt to stifle speech.

I cannot but contrast your illiberal stance with that of the subject of this thread; the great Baroness Mallalieu.

Further, did you not claim that you were a potential UKIP candidate?

Can't wait for Farage to review your post. You will be dropped like a hot potato.

24 November 2013 11:58  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Julia Gasper,

You exceed your authority and abuse His Grace's hospitality by urging readers and communicants to boycott this blog. You have sent multiple emails to His Grace over the past few years purporting to be on behalf of an injured other, who has never himself complained directly on his own behalf. You appear to be obsessed with vicarious hurt and exaggerated grievance.

You have, on multiple occasions, been referred very politely to His Grace's 'Bottom Line' in the right-hand column. This itself appears to be a cause of offence to you, who insist that the utterances of others must somehow conform to your orthodoxy of expression or belief.

It is perhaps for the best that you have departed. His Grace is loath to cause offence to those who voluntarily log onto his blog and then decide to get upset. You may find Telegraph blogs much more to your liking: they censor free speech quite frequently and have the staff and funds to do so.

24 November 2013 12:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Julia, you misunderstand this man’s musings. Calling DanJ0 a keyboard bully is actually a mark of respect for his ability. (It’s a man thing). His presence on this blog is vital for the counter point. The same goes for the atheists.

The Christian faith MUST be put to the test to prove that of all the moral codes, or none at all, it is by far the most humane, caring and orderly. It is so perfect, that you need not actually believe in God to appreciate its presence. So far as this has rolled out over the years, this man has not been disappointed...

24 November 2013 12:34  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

DH said

"I am surprised that a lawyer like Grieve, and law is meant to be evidence based, comes out with somethings as obviously incendiary as that without statistical information".

I think Grieve is saying what myopic political correctness has caused to be veiled for the sake of illusory 'cultural impartiality'. We should know quite well that wherever this 'community' has assumed local ascendancy, they have simply applied some of the worst practices that beset their cultural homeland.

We know that politics in Pakistan buys its votes; that Pakistani police and government functionaries expect and receive kickbacks at all levels, and everyone seemingly has an aversion to paying taxes. Why one may ask does the UK still gives millions in unaccountable aid to prop up the whole rotten system?

'According to the International Development Committee, Pakistan had a lower-than-average tax take. Only 0.57% of Pakistanis, or 768,000 people out of a population of 190 million pay income tax'. wiki

24 November 2013 12:46  
Blogger Corrigan said...

So, this morning, the priest at the mass I attended used the phrase "the disorder of homosexuality" during his sermon. Would he be prosecutable under this legislation? Indeed, he is already prosecutable under current "hate speech" legislation? And since the nearest case on this point that I can find is that of Åke Green in Sweden, who was prosected for condemning homosexuality from his pulpit, convicted, sentenced to prison and only freed on appeal because the European Convention on Human Rights was held to override domestic law, I wonder will the Little Englanders on this blog be preparing an appeal to Strasbourg in the near future.

24 November 2013 12:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Re Pakistani voting irregularities. Over there, entire ballot boxes go missing on election day. One one occasion, a van picking up several went missing and was never seen again.

We should welcome this contribution by our immigrants to our national culture, apparently....

{AHEM}


24 November 2013 12:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Corrigan: "Indeed, he is already prosecutable under current "hate speech" legislation?"

Blimey, what on earth was he saying that amounted to inciting hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation as far as the law is concerned? Not just preaching Christianity obviously, since that's fine as far as the law is concerned ... and rightly so.

24 November 2013 13:48  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Your Grace

"You [Julia Gasper] have sent multiple emails to His Grace over the past few years purporting to be on behalf of an injured other, who has never himself complained directly on his own behalf. You appear to be obsessed with vicarious hurt and exaggerated grievance."

Your Grace, May I respectfully suggest that one way of dealing with emails of this kind would to give them a public airing on your blog? "Look, communicants, here's a complaint that X emailed me today saying that what Y said about Z wasn't nice at all."

24 November 2013 14:49  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack does not know what Corrigan's minister said but he has read what Ake Green said that got him into trouble.

He said that being gay was a "sexual perversions" and "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumor in the body of society." He also said that homosexuality is chosen and people like this can be freed from it.

Being called a cancer in society and choosing to be one could get others thinking that homosexuals should be removed or forcibly treated. And that could be dangerous. But the preacher went on to say we cannot condemn them as Jesus showed everyone respect and never put anyone down anyone.

Could someone say all this in England under this new legislation and then be accused of being a nuisance and annoying? It would certainly annoy Jack if someone said buskers were abnormal and a cancer in the body of society and Jack should change!

24 November 2013 14:50  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Happy Jack

It would certainly annoy Jack if someone said buskers were abnormal and a cancer in the body of society and Jack should change!

Back in the dim and distant past, when I travelled several times a day on the Underground, I would mentally classify buskers into three categories:

1. The ones I willingly gave money to
2. The ones I didn't give money to, but was quite willing to tolerate
3. Those who I thought would fail an audition, however lenient the judges, and ought to be required to learn to play their instruments properly before being allowed back to busk.

But I never told them that. I kept my thoughts to myself.

In the open air, perhaps there isn't the same need for musicianship. But in the echoing tile-lined corridors of the London Underground, it can be hell on the ears.

No offence, I hope, Jack?

24 November 2013 15:25  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Julia Gasper, (who may have departed by now, but here goes anyway),

Perhaps I am being simple, but I don't see how ceasing to follow a blog can prevent any alleged bullying on it. It would simply cause the blog to be, very effectively, diminished and perhaps destroyed. If bullying has occurred then the "victim" is free to defend themselves, and he or she will no doubt, be assisted by those followers of the blog who are fair minded. And may the best argument win, it's called free speech and I support it, even at my expense. People can be very irritating at times, I find, but I don't wish to silence them or the vehicles that they use, not short of violence being encouraged anyway.

24 November 2013 15:42  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Julia Gasper

David Hussell
writes: I don't see how ceasing to follow a blog can prevent any alleged bullying on it.

Exactly. May I suggest that you rethink your decision to bid His Grace farewell.

At the same time, I stand by my suggestion about giving complaints a public airing (today at 14:49)

24 November 2013 16:12  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Good-by to you Ms Gasper

You’ve over stepped the mark

It’s not for you to yay nor nay

To mess about, whence not your shout

To call for ‘out’ or fret or pout

...It’s strictly Cranmer’s way.

24 November 2013 16:17  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Julia:

I agree with Uncle Brian @ 16:12.

For myself, I respect DanJ0.

He and I differ irreconcilably about the nature of ultimate reality; but I still respect him, and welcome his ripostes.

24 November 2013 16:24  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0
“The burden of proof is on Grieve to justify the strength of his comments. This was about vote rigging, wasn't it? If that's the extent of it then he's probably gone too far. However, my first response when I heard the story was "Yes it may be offensive but is it true?"”

Of course it's true, and not just vote rigging either. If he bothers to look he will find plenty.

I've dealt with many in my time in the property market, 9 times out of 10 there were problems with attempted cheating, trying to get it for half the price, passport and identity issues of who was buying the property and who and how many would be living there. Usually they had their own mortgage brokers and estate agents who helped them. You had to be on the ball and very firm with them.

Restaurant owners buying property cheap and filling it full of illegals. Renting out sheds to illegals. Duplicate and triplicate voting papers taken to Pakistan for residents there to sign to vote Labour in UK elections. Offering free dinners at their restaurant for civil servants to sign paperwork to get their other extended family members into the country. Multiple identities and passports.

Julia
Much better you just challenge Banj0 as you call him instead of trying to remove him?

Happy Jack
Much more interesting would be to find out why Ake Green thinks homosexuals are a cancer on society that need to be treated? And what does he recommend as the treatment to free them of it?

24 November 2013 16:46  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Uncle Brian, no offence at all. Jack thinks all buskers should be tolerated. Who would judge whether they are good enough and how? Jack agrees that if people do not like them where they play then they should move on and a good way of letting them know is not giving money.

Happy Jack would never busk in the underground as people are always in such a rush. When in London Jack goes to Covent Garden where people have time and seem relaxed and can stay and listen if they enjoy Jack.

24 November 2013 16:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I dunno what all this bullying thing is all about, there's just some one on one jostling back and forth every now and again in the usual robust way down here.

I actually quite like the Inspector and his eccentricity but I felt I ought to throw at least something back about the implication I saw in this:

"Tatchell is on Pink News today, arguing for a lowering to that age. For Christ’s sake, don’t listen to homosexual men when it comes to the age of consent..."

I could have pointed out that almost all of the respondents over there seem to be happy with the current age of consent or criticise Tatchell because of the adverse publicity it usually brings irrespective of his actual argument.

But no, I just threw back my usual thesis (which I do honesty believe, for what it's worth) and tried to wrap it in a bit of mild wit as I expect the truth would have been ignored anyway. No harm done in either direction really.

24 November 2013 16:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Of course it's true, and not just vote rigging either. If he bothers to look he will find plenty."

As it happens, I expect you're right and for the reasons Grieve said. He could probably have framed it better though because it sounds like stereotyping.

24 November 2013 17:03  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Happy Jack,

By means of a light distraction and diversion, I will say this. I find all the buskers or street artists that I have encountered, so far at least, amusing and entertaining in their own way. We used to have one old fellow in Bury St Edmunds who played the, wait for it, a saw, and a rusty one to boot. It was so rusty I would not hang it on the tool racks in my workshop. The noise was dreadful, wonderfully dreadful, so dreadful it made me laugh, so I'd give him a pound coin and a smile, and be on my way. I rewarded his cheek, his unassuming self confidence and the sheer preposterousness of it all. It was a sort of situation comedy to my musically untutored ear. But then I'm told that I am tone deaf. But I don't accept that, it's the rest of them that are off key, I reckon, he says tongue firmly in cheek. My musical tastes are fickle. I'm into Russian folk songs at the moment. Do you recommend any NE English ones I wonder ?

24 November 2013 17:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Maria, Happy Jack thinks that is a very difficult question and cannot answer it. Christians don't agree on how God works and saves us or how the devil works, let alone on how we should deal with sin that harms society. Besides, Happy Jack doesn't think homosexuality itself a the big cancer in society. It may be a secondary one or a symptom of a greater illness that is spreading. Abortion is another one.

24 November 2013 17:55  
Blogger Preacher said...

Freedom of speech is vital for all.
The Christian message cannot & must not be forced on anyone. It is an invitation to repent of past sins that are known to the perpetrator & his/her creator. If they reject His mercy that is their choice & they are entitled to choose to do so & accept the consequences.
IMO the greater sin is to not extend the invitation to others. To leave them in darkness without hope is a cruelty of such great magnitude that I shudder to think of it. But they have the right to reject or scoff or ridicule the messengers of the gospel.
Any legislation that restricts the freedom of speech for trivialities is & always will be wrong.

24 November 2013 18:06  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello David, Happy Jack agrees there is merit in all performers if one looks close enough. Happy Jack's favourite songs are by Johnny Cash and he knows no local folk songs, sorry.

24 November 2013 18:16  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Preacher,

Quite !

24 November 2013 18:24  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Happy Jack,

Johnny Cash - yes, very good, agreed.

"he knows no local folk songs", a pity, but not a problem. Anyway, thank you for trying. Do, I suggest, look into the Orkney and Shetland song tradition sometime, as you may enjoy that.
In the meanwhile do please continue favouring your selected spots in Durham with your performances.
On a general point, street performers, of all kinds, who are genuinely free to sing what they wish, are perhaps evidence of a certain kind of health and vitality in society ? Why do I say that ? Because I cannot envisage a seriously totalitarian political system allowing such open, visible freedom to flourish, although they might put up phony "protesters" to brainwash the passing public. But perhaps my brain is stuck in overdrive tonight because of what I have been struggling to read.

24 November 2013 18:36  
Blogger Nick said...

Happy Jack

I have come across many buskers in Cardiff and Bristol during my lunch-time walkabouts. The standards vary a lot of course. However, I take the view that a busker is trying to earn money by entertaining the public, and that is a good reason for giving them a bit of change. I admit there have been one or two buskers I would have paid to stop playing, but they are the exception, and mostly I have heard good playing, even exceptionally good playing on occasions.



24 November 2013 21:10  
Blogger Nick said...

Julia Gasper

I think somebody already made the point that the Inspector is more than able to defend himself from Danj0. Indeed, watching Danj0 "attack" the Inspector is a bit like watching the Andrex puppy trying to maul a rotweiler.

Encouraging people to abandon the blog is definitely not the answer. There are many who would like this blog shut down because it is seen as politically incorrect and a threat to secular and atheist culture. We should not hand such people an easy victory by gagging ourselves.

24 November 2013 21:20  
Blogger IanCad said...

In 2007 Joshua Bell busked for 45 minutes at the Washington Metro terminal.

1097 passengers passed by him. Only seven stopped to listen.
In a virtuoso performance that included Bach's D minor Chaconne he picked up a total of thirty two dollars and change.
Presence counts not quality.

24 November 2013 21:22  
Blogger David Hussell said...

To everyone,

If you could be interested in something very USA, and very unEnglish take a look at the story in The Telegraph's electronic offerings on the venomous serpent handlers of the Appalachians.

Based on a single verse from the alternative longer ending of Mark 16 : 18 "they will pick up serpents in their hands" (NRSV) these Charismatics test, extend and demonstrate their faith by picking up snakes from their arsenal of deadly poisonous snakes, and have been doing so for a century, apparently. However keeping these dangerous "critturs" is, unsurprisingly, illegal being considered a public health risk, and I see the point of that. But then I'm not a charismatic, by nature or practice. So then it's off into a First Amendment battle about freedom of religion !
How interesting that this urge to worship God continues to surface in our "advanced" secular liberal society, come what may, I say wryly. Maybe one day the intellectually snobbish masters of the current age will recognize that mankind is called to worship, albeit each in their preferred style.

The Appalachians are really beautiful and contain some very remote valleys and communities. Traveling through them is a treat, but one has to be wary of some of the characters one encounters. They area used to have what they called "sin eaters", another twist on mainstream Christianity. Ironically the area is not that far, by US standards, from Washington. One envisages the tut tuting going on there.
Personally I don't like snakes one bit, Gospel of Mark longer version or not. A nice hymn seems much more sensible.
Sweet, serpent free dreams !

24 November 2013 21:24  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

David, Happy Jack remembers you are studying theology which must be the hardest subject there is. He wishes you well with this. Jack also meant to say another of his favourite singers is the Seekers. They have some smashing songs that children love to hear and are great fun.

Nick, surely you can't walk from Cardiff to Bristol in your lunch break? *chuckle* Happy Jack busks to pass the time of day in the summer months and to be able to meet people and entertain them with "good songs". It also lets him travel about a bit and see the country and visit his friends.

24 November 2013 21:33  
Blogger Nick said...

David H

I remember seeing a television documentary about that denomnination. It was a few years ago but it stuck in my mind (partly because of my own dislike of snakes). It didn't strike me as a particularly good interpretation of that scripture, though I admit that anyone who, through faith, is willing to be bitten by venomous snakes, shows a courage that many of us don't have.

Personally, I think we have a different kind of venom to deal with. It is the venom of an amoral and increasingly God-phobic society. Incidentally, I have just started re-reading the book of Isaiah again. I am struck by the parallels with modern Western "civilisation". Ancient Assyria could easily be the EU today.

Isaiah also talks about the nation being ruled by "boys" or anyone who wears fine clothes. I see some parallels with our own morally under-developed politicians who have fallen prey to the facile attraction of Liberalism, and who are more concerned about image than substance.

24 November 2013 21:55  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Happy Jack,

Thank you for those kind thoughts.

And yes I do recall "The Seekers".

24 November 2013 22:48  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Nick,

Isaiah, As it happens I too am reworking my way through that book, or collection of three books, as some would have it. Yes the similarities in Isaiah 1, paras 1 - 39, to our own times are indeed striking. Human nature is unchanging so we are condemned to make and make again the same type of mistake. But few in western society now attach any wisdom to those "old books".

Perhaps the "fine clothes" equates to the celebrity thing, and yes "boys" could equate to the immature and unwise, who now abound in powerful positions ?
Maybe, ultimately a country gets the rulers that it deserves, I muse ?

24 November 2013 22:58  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

There is much to be learnt from the OT as it says; They were ensamples for us.

24 November 2013 23:03  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I wonder, might these new laws be in preparation for the influx of Romanians and Bulgarians who part take in busking of slightly different kind in that they have accomplices who harass and rob you as you pass them on the street whilst you are distracted by a song or one of them dancing in a funny costume?

24 November 2013 23:50  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello Marie. Happy Jack can assure you no self-respecting British busker would ever dress in a funny costume!

Happy Jack once stayed with some Roma people in Spain. Do not misjudge them they have a sad history and have faced difficult times. They mean no one any harm. Some of their customs and beliefs are strange and they will not want to change. They are not all thieves and bad people. They are just trying to make their way through this world as best they can.

25 November 2013 00:40  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Happy Jack
Their country is a hot bed of corruption and full of dirty peasants whose vocations are thieving on a grand scale and scrap metal merchant.
They can't even operate a decent postal system in their country for God's sake.

25 November 2013 01:45  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear David, on the subject of folk music, may I commend to you the works of that well-known wandering minstrel, Rambling Syd Rumpo? Who can forget 'The Pewter Woggler's Bangling Song,' or 'The Song of the Bogle Clencher?' The Bishop and I often accompany one another singing 'The Lummockshire Air' and 'The Runcorn Splod Cobbler's Song' has since been performed by the Cathedral Choir at the Festival of St. Brian Blessed.

25 November 2013 08:12  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Greetings, Happy Jack.

I'm told that when you first appeared, DanJ0 thought you were me: returning in disguise.

I take that as an unintended compliment on DanJ0's part.

As it is, I'm back in my own persona.

25 November 2013 08:29  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Mrs Proudie,

What a delightful chance encounter on such a fine winter's morning.
I am as ever deeply indebted to you for your excellent recommendations and peerless taste in music, as in all things. I shall rush out and purchase such airs which can then accompany me, indeed entertain me, as a knacker myself (traditional west country term) on my exercise contrivance.

Oh and do please pass on my regards to my Lord, the Bishop.
Good morning, to you fair lady. (Doffs hat and walks away towards Cathedral bookshop to buy Christmas cards)

25 November 2013 08:35  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Mrs Proudie,

What a delightful chance encounter on such a fine winter's morning.
I am as ever deeply indebted to you for your excellent recommendations and peerless taste in music, as in all things. I shall rush out and purchase such airs which can then accompany me, indeed entertain me, as I knacker myself (traditional west country term) on my exercise contrivance.

Oh and do please pass on my regards to my Lord, the Bishop.
Good morning, to you fair lady. (Doffs hat and walks away towards Cathedral bookshop to buy Christmas cards)

25 November 2013 08:38  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Mrs Proudie

Dear Mrs Proudie, may I appeal to you to clear up certain grave suspicions that have been flying around. Is it true that, in addition to the published version of Barsetshire Traditional Airs Melodies & Folksongs, collected, arranged and scored for sackbut and serpent by the Rev. Septimus Harding, certain privileged members of the Cathedral Chapter have also been seen (and heard) chuckling over an underground edition with unbowdlerised lyrics?

25 November 2013 09:32  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A chap has had a sleepless night worrying about the effect the Roma will have on our own species of dodgy itinerant, Homo Sapiens Pikey.

Good grief, interbreeding, predation, and loss of habitat - we could lose the lot !

25 November 2013 09:36  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Marie1797 said..

"I wonder, might these new laws be in preparation for the influx of Romanians and Bulgarians who part take in busking of slightly different kind in that they have accomplices who harass and rob you as you pass them on the street whilst you are distracted by a song or one of them dancing in a funny costume?"

We have had their equivalent her efor yonks..The pestilence that is called 'dee Oirish traveller' with slutty dressed wife/mistress and twelve kids in tow, spouting oirish charm and dodgy goods and services across blighty!

"Sir, could i be interesting you in this bona fide leather settee that we came across on our travels?", "Sir, could i be interesting you in this bona fide laptop that we came across on our travels?"
A plague across our beautiful land...whats a few more of their descendents going to do and what will Dominic Grieve say then retract once it's spoken?

25 November 2013 09:40  
Blogger David B said...

Mrs Proudie, further to your comments on the wonderful Rambling Sid, I take the liberty of commending to you the work of Mulligan and O'Hare, which is easily found on YouTube.

In particular, there is the timeless ballad 'My Rose has left me' - almost unparalleled for it's sentimentality which almost borders on the twee, though I won't comment on which side of the border it lies.

I hope you like it.

David

Ple

25 November 2013 09:52  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I know nothing of the Roma or Rumania but my travels in neighboring Bulgaria were revealing, of Bulgaria that is.
When traveling I prefer to think well of people but remain ever alert and vigilant. However anyone with mature eyes in their head could spot some of the problems.
The police were clearly overbearing, and I was told amenable to bribes, but I saw no bribe taking myself. The restaurants would try to "forget" to return even substantial change. On one occasion, in a fairly smart restaurant, tired of the waiter suddenly losing use of both his previously adequate English, and even sign language, I took myself off to the managers office, knocked politely on the door of course, and smiling, politely required the return of my £15 change. A sullen manager paid up. I thanked him and left.

Roadside large infrastructure projects, proudly bearing the EU symbol on the Contractors Boards were to my managerial eye severely over staffed, and with little obvious purposeful activity being achieved. I observed it over several periods so it was not a coffee or lunch break. It contrasted sharply with building sites I was used to visiting in the UK.
The local "fixers" were pointed out to me on many occasions, with their luxurious vehicles.
So that's what I saw with my own eyes. As I say I apply the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, but walking about with a lively, inquiring interest can reveal much "intelligence" about a place. Whilst "intelligence" is not evidence in the legal sense, of course, if its got four legs and barks it's a dog, in my book.
However I am sure the country contains many fine people as well, and perhaps they will be the very ones most keen to leave, I don't know.

25 November 2013 11:27  
Blogger Hannah said...

'draconian, illiberal and un-conservative'

That is also a good summary of this current government as well.

25 November 2013 11:57  
Blogger Hannah said...

Julia Gasper

I for one won't be boycotting this blog. As to the rest of what you've written -

1).I cannot see the personal bullying by Danjo to Inspector or anyone. Sure he is 'robust' and so is Inspector. It is a kind of 'initiation test' to go head to head with these two on a verbal/intellectual joust. And having a doctorate, you should be used to that form?

2).I don't really think you have any authority when it comes to calling on others about being personal. e.g. repeatedly misspelling Danjo to 'banjo', calling people who disagree with your nonsense as being 'trolls' and what was it the other day, suggesting that Danjo was the blog author.

3. You advertised your own blog. Took a look. No thanks. Walked in walked out.

25 November 2013 12:23  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Oh Mr Blofeld, Dee Oirish tinker is positively civilised and that's saying something!

This lot think nothing of ripping the notes out of your hands as soon as you've taken it out of the cash-point machine, and you'll have to change your wardrobe to the anti-slash ranges of clothing and bags too from now on Mr B.

25 November 2013 14:41  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack points out that not all Rumanians or Bulgarians are Roma. They are small minorities within these countries and live on their own. They are all over Europe in small numbers and even in America. And Irish Travellers and Roma are not the same at all.

25 November 2013 15:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Here we come
Rolling down the street
We get the funniest looks from
Everyone we meet.

Hey, hey we're the Roma
And people say we Roma around.
And we're too busy scheming,
to put any litter bins down.

We go wherever we want to,
Do what we like to do.
We don't have time for employment,
There's always something new.

We're just trying to be friendly,
Come watch us sing and play.
We're the unwanted of Europe,
And we go to England to stay.

Hey, hey we're the Roma,
You never know where we'll be found.
So you had better get ready,
We may be coming to your town.

(Apologies to “The Monkees”)





25 November 2013 18:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "I'm told that when you first appeared, DanJ0 thought you were me: returning in disguise. I take that as an unintended compliment on DanJ0's part."

That's interesting. Told by whom and where?

25 November 2013 18:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Happy Jack: "They are small minorities within these countries and live on their own."

My main experience of Roma is in Prague where they are very visible due to their dark colouring. Unfortunately, there are a sizeable number who hang around the central station and the tourist areas late at night, pickpocketing and mugging people. I haven't seen such overt racism as I did in Prague against the Roma by the local population. I wonder whether there's a feedback loop going on there where lots of petty criminals are identified as Roma, leading to the assumption that all Roma are petty criminals and the subsequent abuse following that.

25 November 2013 18:32  
Blogger Hannah said...

Kinda can't understand why Inspector and Marie are so adverse to Romanians and Bulgarians coming to Britain, given they are Orthodox Christians and or Orthodox Christians. The Irish have a gypsy or Traveller community. Do you both want to send them back to Ireland? As for the Roma, you do realise they were a part of the Shoah?

25 November 2013 18:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hannah – it’s a windup, isn’t it ?



25 November 2013 19:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Actually Hannah, it’s a bloody good question. Too busy at the moment ironing to give you your answer, but we’ll see what others come up with...





25 November 2013 19:18  
Blogger Hannah said...

RE Explorer and Danjo, well as Inspector has kicked this thread into 'musical' direction:

'Tell me quickly what's the story. Who saw what and why and where. Let him give a full description. Let him answer to Danjo!'

25 November 2013 19:44  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Inspector,

'It is a windup?'

Well... ahem.... I am in a bit of a happy mood as it is Hanukkah soon!

I know what you mean by ironing, got to do that at some point tonight as well..

25 November 2013 19:46  
Blogger Hannah said...

But it is, as you say, a 'bloody good question' anyways.

25 November 2013 20:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Just to start you off Hannah, there are probably 6,000,000,000 people in the world who would have a better time in the UK than what they have now. And why not, the UK tax payers’ ability to support all and any is legion. So, where do you draw the line. There is a line, isn’t there ?



25 November 2013 20:27  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 November 2013 21:14  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Inspector,

Well, you are not really starting me off, of course people were saying the same things that you and Marie do, about Irish immigration in the 19th Century.

The solution is for third world and or poorer countries to have a better system of government, which would get rid of half of the problems overnight. Until them you'll have the same stuff as now- richer countries creaming off the educated minority of those poor countries- as well as those who manage to flee these countries and who will work for next to nothing illegally - 'slave labour' or try and take benefit money- whilst those in charge of said countries help themselves to all the billions in aid via the Swiss bank account.

My uncle used to maintain that those countries were better looked after and governed by the British Empire and I think he was right.

Sad, really, that people decry British Imperialism, but it seems that anti-imperialists of the third world decided that their people would prefer 'Bellum omnium contra omnes,' in which life is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short- to being governed justly by London.

25 November 2013 21:15  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 18:21

Sat Nov 2nd 2013, the Nigel Farage post.

Your question and Happy Jack's replies @ 14:34, 14:51, 15:04 and 15:09.

It was pointed out to me in passing by a friend who reads without contributing, and who noticed it when I was off the Blog.

If she got it wrong, and you were talking about someone else, then my apologies.

25 November 2013 21:17  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello Explorer. Happy Jack was told he was Dodo by Avi and also asked by Danjo. Jack doesn't know who this Dodo person is or was. Carl thinks Jack is a Catholic but he isn't. He just thinks this predestination idea is a nasty one.

Inspector, that Nazi man you mentioned used to make up songs about Jews like the one you made up about Roma. You could just put the word "Irish" or "Jewish" in there. Or even "Catholic". Jack finds this to be a small minded and nasty thing to do and not very original or intelligent.

Hello Hannah, the Roma can be Christian or Muslim depending on where they live. The came from India hundreds of years ago and have kept some of their Hindu beliefs. Hitler wanted them all killed. England threw them out a long time ago with two weeks notice because they went about telling people's fortunes.

Hi Danjo, Happy Jack really doesn't know if the Roma are bad people. Jack supposes a lot of young men in big cities without their families around might be criminal. Jack doesn't believe in judging a whole people by the actions of a few. Jack read somewhere Slav people think Roma are diseased in the head.

25 November 2013 21:28  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Happy Jack,

Hannah is grateful for your knowledge of all of these things and feels like an eejit when Happy Jack, a humble busker knows so much. Hannah was also thinking when she is in County Durham next she shall put a fiver in your busking hat.

25 November 2013 21:37  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hannah, Happy Jack just asks Jeeves when he wants to find something out. A fiver is a very generous offering. In your case Jack would consider those African gold coins!

25 November 2013 22:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Jack, it isn’t just Avi who thinks you are Dodo...

25 November 2013 22:02  
Blogger Hannah said...

Happy Jack,

My 'African coins' are going to be put to better use.

25 November 2013 22:22  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, you so remind Happy Jack of some of the police custody sergeants he has met during his travels. They are suspicious of everybody.

Hannah, then Happy Jack will settle for a fiver and will try to learn a Jewish song for you. Some of the Psalms are very beautiful.

25 November 2013 22:34  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 November 2013 22:37  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 November 2013 22:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Forgive this man Jack. You see, this Dodo was a skilful, accomplished, and shameless liar. If there is one thing that gets at this man’s goat, it’s the aforementioned qualities...

Still, you are who you say you are, so we’ll say no more...

25 November 2013 22:43  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Inspector,

How can Dodo transform himself into Happy Jack, where's the defence of Roman Catholicism, gay baiting, Len and Danjo bashing, plus general argumentative nature of that avian? Could it be like Dr Who 'day of the Doctor' all over again- except without the fab girls Billie Piper, Jenna Coleman and Ingrid Oliver to swoon over- do you think this blog have an invasion of a Zygon or has Inspector's Zyon's detector malfunctioned?

25 November 2013 22:48  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Happy Jack,

I look forward to reading what you learn. As I've said before it is Hanukkah on Wednesday, perhaps that might help.

25 November 2013 22:54  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello Inspector, of course Happy Jack forgives you and will say no more about it. Jack does not like ill-feeling to grow between people.

Hi Hannah, Happy Jack is always ready to try to learn new songs but nothing too complicated.

25 November 2013 22:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Jack:"Hi Danjo, Happy Jack really doesn't know if the Roma are bad people. Jack supposes a lot of young men in big cities without their families around might be criminal. Jack doesn't believe in judging a whole people by the actions of a few. Jack read somewhere Slav people think Roma are diseased in the head."

Actually, I found that there were as many women as men involved, and pairs of children too. A pair of women tried to pickpocket me in the early hours whilst offering their 'services' very physically, thinking I was drunk. That said, I was very uncomfortable with the overt racism against them over there. It extended to anyone with dark colouring, assuming they were Roma. This is why I thought there might be a feedback loop where the Roma are so ostracised that it encourages some of them to operate like that on the fringes of society.

26 November 2013 03:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

That stuff recently in Sheffield involving David Blunkett was interesting because the Roma were described in general as devout Orthodox Christians. I think people jumped to the conclusion that there was criminality issues whereas it looked like anti-social behaviour ones to me ... which highlights one of the things about anti-social behaviour: it implies a set of rules for living in a social environment. Congregating in groups late at night is intimidating or annoying to others but it seems to be normal in some versions of Roma culture. Hence, the local politicians' appeal for consideration of local culture, which ironically is mainly Pakistani based by the sound of it. That'll be an interesting test of the proposed new law and instruments if it goes ahead!

26 November 2013 03:20  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Exolorer:"If she got it wrong, and you were talking about someone else, then my apologies."

No, I was obliquely referring to you but one would have needed to be reading closely over time to pick it up. It was a hint of the Socratic method and the like in Jack's questions about liberalism that got me thinking. I wondered if you had reinvented yourself and started afresh. However, you are both here now and I don't think you're the kind of person to simultaneously operate two IDs. Hence, I'm running with Jack simply being who he says he is and without history here now unless things take a different turn. This is the unfortunate nature of forums where someone has betrayed trust, lots of people are subsequently suspicious of newcomers.

26 November 2013 03:37  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Thanks, DanJ0.

Yes, I see. All that makes complete sense, and I fully understand why you would have been suspicious: very astute of you.

Cordially.

26 November 2013 05:22  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Danjo, Happy Jack doesn't believe there is any excuse for such bad behaviour by Roma people. What happened to you sounds very scary and Jack wouldn't want this is England. It all sounds like something out of Victorian London.

Happy Jack looked into this a bit more and their history in this country is horrible and might explain some of this bad behaviour. Most Roma there were killed by the Nazi death squads and many are now immigrants. The Communists did not want them either and tried to stop them roaming about. They even tried to stop the women having babies. Maybe these ideas are still there. Czech people do not like the Roma and do not want them there. It must be hard to find a way to make a living is such a place and to feel unwanted and hated.

26 November 2013 12:50  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Happy Jack,

The question is whether or not Britain should allow as many of the Roma or other citizens of Bulgaria or Romania to come to work in the UK, not how badly or not they are treated in their own country. If we were as geographically and economically as big as America, it might not be such a problem, but the British isles are quite small, there is already gross social problems in our country. The reaction of people- sometimes on the lower rungs of society's ladder- against immigration is therefore more rational than one may think, rather than it being bigotry (as poorer immigrants will work for less, often willing to be paid under the minimum wages, thus squeezing wages and being in competition with the existing 'working class' - of course business and the individual rich do benefit from immigration, but you won't hear people saying that, other than it 'will grown the UK economy').

Furthermore, if it is the case as many came come here as they want to, are people willing to pay for the healthcare, housing and other 'social costs' that this will entail? In addition what economic contribution will they make to society other than bringing wages down for businesses and or the uber rich?

26 November 2013 13:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello Hannah, Happy Jack believes a nation should be able to decide who can come to live within it. What's the point of being a country otherwise? If it needs more or if it wants to protect people running away from danger, fine. Jack thinks it bad to just open a country' doors and let everybody from anywhere without working out what effect this will have. Happy Jack doesn't think one group like the Roma should be treated differently from others though. That wouldn't be right either.

26 November 2013 13:35  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Happy Jack,

Then we are in broad agreement. The elephant in the room is, of course, that as a member state of the EU, we do not control our borders in respect of citizens of other EU countries entering the UK. True this can cut the other way, so you or I could go and live in France, but it is a fact that English is the global language, we have a flexible labour market and generous welfare arrangements... all good reasons for people to be motivated to come here and being in the EU, whether it is liked or not.

26 November 2013 13:57  

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