Thursday, December 05, 2013

Nelson Mandela walks to eternal freedom


Nelson Mandela is dead. From passive resistance against apartheid to charges of treason; to ANC violence; to life imprisonment on Robben Island; to international symbol of hope; to respected global statesman; to Nobel Laureate; to President of South Africa; to World Elder and a remaining lifetime dedicated to peace and reconciliation. It was as though his life had an appointment with destiny - to be a living incarnation of grace and forgiveness.

He made a famous walk to freedom after 27 years on Robben Island. Thousands greeted him in ecstasy. Now he has made his final walk to eternal freedom to be in the presence of Christ. And the Heavenly Host greeted him in raptures of Hallelujah!

In his 1992 Easter sermon to the Zionist Christian Church in the holy city of Moria, he began with the Lamentations of Jeremiah:
Remember, O Lord, what is come upon us:
consider, and behold our reproach,
Our land is turned over to strangers, our homes to foreigners,
We are orphans and fatherless, our Mothers are as widows,
We have to pay for our water; and our wood is sold unto us,
Our necks are under the yoke of oppression, we labour, and we have no rest.
He spoke as 'fellow worshipper'; his presence there was 'an act of communion'; 'an act of renewal and rededication', observing that the festival of Easter, which is so closely linked with the festival of the Passover, marks the rebirth of the resurrected Messiah,
who without arms,
without soldiers,
without police and covert special forces,
without hit squads or bands of vigilantes,
overcame the mightiest state during his time.
He continued:
This great festival of rejoicing marks the victory of the forces of life over death of hope over despair.

As we bow our heads in prayerful worship this day, our minds cannot but dwell on the evil of violence that today stalks our land. We cannot but call to mind the cries of mothers violated, brutalised and outraged by armed foreign mercenaries and killers in our midst.

As we lower our heads in supplication to the Lord of Hosts, the blood-curdling battle cries of armed men, sweeping through a township like a swarm of locusts in a maize field, ring in our ears, and we know that in some home, this night shall be night for mourning.

We pray with you for the blessings of peace! We pray with you for the blessings of love! We pray with you for the blessings of freedom! We pray with you for the blessings of reconciliation among all the people of South Africa!

...In its own way, the Zionist Christian Church was expressing what we of the ANC, two years later, tried to assert and have fought to entrench, as the basis of the politics of our country. That principle so eloquently simple but yet so profound, has moved thousands through the ages to strive for a better world. We restate it today for emphasis: - The brother and sisterhood of all human beings, and the common fatherhood of God Almighty!

Nelson Mandela became the embodiment of a nation yearning for freedom; of singular devotion to justice; of fervent belief in principle; of tenacious refusal to give in to torture and persecution.

He stood firm, and suffered a 27-year-long exile, during which everything must have seemed impossible, wretched, hopeless.

But he endured and finally triumphed, proclaiming from the mountaintops that all people - be they black or white, be they brown or yellow, be they rich or poor, be they wise or fools - are created in the image of the Creator and are his children. What faith he must have had. He explained his political theology:
We of the African National Congress: its leadership and its membership, shall sooner break the laws and defy the fanciful wishes of mortal men when we know that in so doing we are being obedient to God. And in obedience to God we declare that all South Africans - be they Christians, Muslims, Jews Hindus, Buddhists - have an equal and untrammelled right to worship God as they see fit. No government should have the right to prescribe religious observance for the citizens of this country.
We cannot begin to comprehend the darkness and bitter loneliness that he suffered. He dared to cry 'Let my people go!' as they were arrested, detained, tortured, imprisoned, shot, killed and executed.

Just for being black.

But he never gave up. He ran the race for justice, freedom and peace, parting the waters and opening the way to the promised land of full equality and democracy. For him, there was no such thing as partial freedom.

And now he has won the Crown of Eternal Life.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

249 Comments:

Blogger john in cheshire said...

In the words of the secularist Ed Balls : 'so what?'

5 December 2013 22:41  
Blogger Hannah said...

RIP, Nelson Mandela.

5 December 2013 22:57  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

I tried to post this on the BiasedBBC website : Mr Mandela was a terrorist who hated white people. He was and consorted with communists and tried to kill people before he was apprehended by the South African authorities. If I had been in power at that time, I'd have had him executed, along with Joe Slovo and the rest of the communist African National Congress. But no, being white and Christian, we let this pestilence live and thrive and now one can see the consequences in present day South Africa. Whites are second class citizens only fit to be tortured and killed. So, it's OK for blacks to kill whites in South Africa no matter that they might have been there for many generations. But try to say that a black in England has no right be here and we are called racist. No matter what whites do they are always in the wrong. Until we recognise that reality of life we will never begin to fight back against the communists and racists who are waging war against us.

5 December 2013 23:06  
Blogger Frater minor said...

Nelson Mandela was a Man of God
May he rest in peace

Frater minor

5 December 2013 23:12  
Blogger Hannah said...

John In Cheshire,

Mr Mandela has only been dead for a couple of hours and here you are, being a proud "white Christian", if you even know what a Christian is, spewing venom and hatred about black people like there is no tomorrow. Perhaps you might feel better by burning a few crosses outside of people's doors? Does wearing white robes and a hood suite you? Yes, you are clearly free to express your views, but boy, what a good advert are you for abuse of freedom of speech. But please don't give us this pretend stuff about you being a 'christian'.

5 December 2013 23:38  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack doesn't know enough to say if Mr Mandela was a man of God and is a saint. Jack admired his change of heart and his attempt to help his country rather than seek revenge for all those years in prison. That showed some character. And didn't Paul change from killing Christians to being a great Apostle?

Jack prays for Nelson Mandela and hopes he is with God in heaven.

6 December 2013 00:00  
Blogger Ivan said...


Mandela was a decent enough man. He wasn't exactly incarcerated in a Thai prison. The whites would have been better off doing all the work themselves. And yes Joe Slovo, ungrateful Lithuanian refugee, should have hanged from the end of a rope.

6 December 2013 02:03  
Blogger Manfarang said...

God bless Nelson Mandela
God bless South Africa

6 December 2013 02:15  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Ivan
I don't know what Thai prisons really have to do with Nelson Mandela.
Many tears ago Thai political prisoners were kept on the island of Tarutao. One of them So Sethaputra finished writing the first comprehensive English-Thai dictionary there.
Tarutao is an island of great physical beauty which is today part of a marine park.

6 December 2013 02:42  
Blogger Manfarang said...

That should be years ago but tears ago may be apt.
(failing eyesight I am afraid)

6 December 2013 02:45  
Blogger Ivan said...


Manfarang, I respect Mandela for not giving in to hate. God bless him. The Thai prison remark is a result of watching something on TV.

6 December 2013 02:54  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Ivan
South African prisons are rather dangerous places, they are probably worse than a Thai jail.

6 December 2013 03:46  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Well said john in Cheshire,Communist ,murderer and darling of twisted liberals everywhere,mandela is now probably apologising to those two businessmen that he murdered,but that is ok,forgivness is wonderful.Now the bloodbath will reach new heights,but will the liberals hold marches,dig up cricket pitches etc in defence of the white south Africans who are murdered daily,run off their farms,robbed and raped,do not hold your breath,for they will be too busy singing kill the boer.

6 December 2013 07:00  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! In life and in death, Mr. Mandela stirs up considerable passion. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so it is said. The wind of change has blown through Africa sure enough - but isn't it odd that now colonialism is no more and Africans have, in their respective countries, self-determination, that more Africans are pulling up sticks and heading our way? Why, when we have given up carrying the White Man's Burden does the Burden decide to burden us further? Ah but I digress...Mr. Mandela is dead and the Great and the Good will grieve; one can either take comfort in a Saint returning to Heaven or there being one less terrorist in the world. The choice, as they say, is yours...

6 December 2013 07:42  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Mrs Proudie:

The Great and the Good (if that is how our Western elites are to be described) no longer believe in Heaven: unless it be built on Earth by the EU or the UN.

6 December 2013 08:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tributes flood in for the cuddly former terrorist...

“He was bigger than Christ” - Inspector General

“I think you’re right” – Christ

“A fine man” – Satan

“Brought peace and prosperity to South Africa” – Billy Liar

6 December 2013 08:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Miracles attributed to the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived....

“I drank his urine and it cured me of AIDS” – Prostitute

“He rubbed my stump and my amputated right leg grew back” – Fellow Terrorist

“He looked me in the eyes and my bi-polar went” – Italian woman

“He shook my hand and I became Pope” - Frank

6 December 2013 08:54  
Blogger The Explorer said...

I'm happy to give the man his due, but I draw the line at him as some sort of bringer of Global Peace.

Is anywhere in the World not thinking of him at this moment? asked the BBC.

If one means not following his example, then I can think of a few places. Syria? Iran? A No-Fly Zone in the South China Sea?

6 December 2013 09:03  
Blogger David Hussell said...

I have not lived in South Africa or studied it so I don't feel able to say anything definite about it, except to rehearse the general point that all people are made by, and equal, under God.

However from this distance it seems that Mandela's vision is not being honoured. I hear tales from friends who have visited recently, both on business and as visitors, of widespread violence and injustice, of whites living in walled communities and with widespread black poverty. I note that whites are leaving for other countries, and have been doing so for some decades now, even my dentist came from South Africa. I am aware of whole multi-generation families returning to the UK, involving considerable financial cost and loss.
I suppose the money they dig out of the ground will keep that leaky ship afloat, in some fashion. Whilst change and development can be expected to take time, the situation there does not seem to be progressing in a positive direction. But as I say I claim no special knowledge of that nation.

Whilst it seems right to honour his work, achievements and memory, our media should later, after a suitable gap, look with realism at the situation as it exists now, and then conjecture the prospects for a better future for all its peoples.

6 December 2013 09:18  
Blogger Sister Tiberia said...

Rest eternal grant unto him, O Lord, and may perpetual light shine upon him. May he rest in peace. Amen.

6 December 2013 09:23  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Lawks a-mercy Inspector, I haven't laughed so much over my porridge in years - even Mr. Slope dribbled helplessly over his soldiers! You are a card sir, and no mistake!

6 December 2013 09:25  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Ah Mr. Explorer, I fear you may be right...the Gladstones of this world are few and far between.

6 December 2013 09:26  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 December 2013 09:26  
Blogger John Thomas said...

Hannah, I'm not convinced that John in Cheshire was exactly "spewing venom and hatred about black people", just saying that in the present circumstances, anything white people do is (represented as) wrong, and anything black people is (represented as) right - which seems a reasonable, objective observation supported by the facts.

6 December 2013 09:30  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Nkosi sikelele Africa.

John in Cheshire: do yourself a favour by deleting your poisonous post. Yes Mandela wasn't perfect, he said so himself, yes there is some idolatry directed towards him, no today's South Africa isn't Paradise or even Switzerland.

But its not Zimbabwe, and for that, maybe some thanks are due to Mandela's statesmanship and above all his lack of rancour. Compare with Mugabe.

6 December 2013 09:32  
Blogger Len said...

"In a way I had never quite comprehended before, I realized the role I could play in court and the possibilities before me as a defendant. I was the symbol of justice in the court of the oppressor, the representative of the great ideals of freedom, fairness and democracy in a society that dishonoured those virtues. I realized then and there that I could carry on the fight even in the fortress of the enemy."
— Mandela, 1994.

6 December 2013 10:25  
Blogger Balaams Ass said...

Steve I cannot say whether Mandela would have behaved differently from Mugabe if they swapped shoes. Perhaps, at least you know what you are going to get from Mugabe!

Mandela was a gifted manipulator of people who crafted a saintly persona, but who associated with some very unpleasant people.

For me the Boer's are the heroes in SA. They built a nation from nothing, shed their blood to keep it and were betrayed by the West who caved-in to communism.

6 December 2013 10:31  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
The Africans are heading to South Africa not your way. You haven't been to Cape Town recently have you?

Balaams Ass
The farmers in SA do think they are God's chosen people

6 December 2013 11:00  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Fair enough Brer Ass, you're not entirely wrong and the hagiography is possible developing in Diana-esque direction.

But I do think the compare and contrast with Mugabe is instructive. Not 'might have's but sctual performance.

I expect there will be a touching tribute up at Fred Phelps' site presently.

6 December 2013 11:04  
Blogger Balaams Ass said...

I mean no disrespect to Mandela, but I won't idolise the man.

Mugabe was a freedom fighter who achieved military victory. He is a hero to his people. He is a ruthless operator. He is a survivor.

Mugabe is a lion. Mandela was more devious.

6 December 2013 11:13  
Blogger graham wood said...

For those who would like to find a truthful and more realistic assessment of Mandela then I would
strongly urge all of you to watch these two very important videos which only total 11 minutes all up:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTFhaUYmzV0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKO7MmJ60zY

This from a Christian who interviewed NM on two occasions.
Here a proper balance will be restored to the wall to wall comment.

6 December 2013 11:19  
Blogger Balaams Ass said...

Manfarang

We idolise men who do very little, when in this world the heroes are those who create something new, not just react. Mandela was a reactor, a man who played events. There have been men who made events.

6 December 2013 11:20  
Blogger Ivan said...


The Boers were done in by the greed of the British Empire for gold and coal. Their ancestors had fled as far away as they could from Europe only to be waylaid by the commercial interests, which kept importing all manner of people to work the mines. A Boer can trace his ancestry back 350 years, but he has no organic claim to the Cape that his fathers had made livable in a hard-scrabble life, while some itinerant miner from Nigeria or Congo can claim, should he choose, to be a son of the soil, merely on account of the colour of his skin. The love of money (and leisure) is at the root of all evil, they should have done all the necessary work by themselves.

6 December 2013 11:22  
Blogger John Smeaton, SPUC director said...

God rest Nelson Mandela. His record on pro-life/pro-family issues: http://spuc-director.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/god-rest-nelson-mandela-his-record-on.html

6 December 2013 11:32  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Manfarang, thank you for putting me right, as I had no idea Somalis came from Shropshire...

6 December 2013 11:34  
Blogger John Thomas said...

More information and sources, for gaining a more rounded picture of NM, including some of the case against him, are given by Bill Muehelenberg: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2013/12/06/nelson-mandela/

6 December 2013 11:37  
Blogger graham wood said...

John Thomas. Indeed so, and if perhaps you missed my recommendation above, Bill Muehlenberg strongly recommends the two short videos:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTFhaUYmzV0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKO7MmJ60zY

Well worth viewing and IMO is a more balanced perspective.

6 December 2013 11:41  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Blessed are the peacemakers

This page has a couple of photographs showing the aftermath of Mandela’s peacemaking on Church Street, Pretoria.

6 December 2013 11:44  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Please take a look at your Harmsworth Universal Atlas and Gazetteer 1904 and find where Nigeria is.

6 December 2013 11:54  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Manfarang, I did, and I do believe it is coloured pink...

6 December 2013 11:59  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Good Well that's where they are coming to South Africa from these days along with a lot of other African countries.

6 December 2013 12:08  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Manfarang, you do seem to be in a disagreeable mood this morning...time to pop the kettle on and dig out the Rich Teas...

6 December 2013 12:22  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Ivan has it near enough about right.

Having said that, if Mandela (the man) had not been so magnanimous and when released had not promoted the Truth and Reconciliation tribunals, the bloodshed of white South Africans would have been far greater than experienced so far.

6 December 2013 12:28  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

The place that SA occupies in Western Culture has never been about the fate of ordinary South Africans. It has always been a narcissistic preoccupation - the perfect projection of Western guilt and Western politics onto a foreign experience. White South Africans were designated to carry the guilt for all of European civilization. Upon them was to be laid the sins of slavery and colonization. And so they were driven outside the camp and offered up as atonement. The actual future of SA was never a significant consideration. Men could kill each other so long as white guilt was propitiated.

These gushing eulogies are not about SA or Nelson Mandela. They are about us - the self declaration that we have made atonement for ourselves and expunged the stain of our ancestor's guilt. It must be so, for see how we praise him and his cause. Afterwards we can go back to ignoring SA because there isn't any reason for it to be about us anymore.

carl

6 December 2013 14:27  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Is it news that the Soviet Union was strongly supportive of the anti-apartheid movement in general and of the ANC in particular? I don’t think so.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_general_election,_1994

The African National Congress (ANC), whose slate incorporated the labour confederation COSATU and the South African Communist Party, fell short of a two-thirds majority.

Why do you suppose it was that Western governments went on paying no more than lip service to the anti-apartheid movement until the Soviet Union was safely dead and buried?

Mrs Proudie

No sugar in my tea, please, if you don't mind. Thank you.

6 December 2013 14:41  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Very thoughtful Carl. I suspect that you are correct.

6 December 2013 15:52  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Uncle Brian, I can offer Earl Grey with or without lemon but never sugar; or maybe you might like to sample my lapsang? It's tiffin time, though Mr. Slope prefers to take the odd Battenburg in the privacy of his chambers, which may account for the noise. I can't offer hospitality for too long, alas, as I need to dress for the annual Feast of the Prodigal Mass-murderers in the Chapel of SS Gerry and Martin. I'm wearing my combat-crinoline with a Kalashnikov motive sewn around the hem in silver thread. We shall of course be offering prayers for all princes, potentates and late presidents.

6 December 2013 16:30  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Rooibos with a slice of lemon please.

6 December 2013 16:31  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Rooibos, dear Manfarang? I'm not sure 'The Barsetshire Provinder' stocks such a delicacy...you might have to bring your own. I shall save a slice of Lady de Courcy's Seed Cake for you. I am so looking forward to your enthralling tales of the veldt - perhaps you were at Rorke's Drift helping to colour the atlas pink?

6 December 2013 16:58  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Or maybe you were throwing the assegais? One should not assume, should one?

6 December 2013 17:00  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Mrs Proudie

When one contemplates your double entendres, it is highly apposite that your creator was a Trollope.

6 December 2013 17:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

SITUATIONS VACANT

Although He Who Could Do No Wrong isn’t even cold yet, MSM are currently interviewing for a new terrorist we can all look up to and fawn over. A proven ability to undermine civilisation and possession of a black hide would definitely be advantageous. Please send your CV to the BBC. No letter bombs, thank you, we’ll take your murderous intent as read.

(British muslims, and micks need not apply. Not applicable to Rhodesia. This is an equal opportunities and so on, so if you can’t walk properly or bat for the other side, or even be a gal, God help us, no problem, and of course not forgetting to round off with some bullshit about investing in people. Oh yes, the post is carbon neutral too, we’d like to think. It might even comply with health and safety requirements, no one here has a bloody clue on that one, who does ?)

6 December 2013 17:18  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Great-grandaddy at the relief of Mafeking.

6 December 2013 17:19  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Mr. Explorer, double entendres? The very idea!

Dear Dear Manfarang, I suspected a connections somewhere along the line...

6 December 2013 17:26  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Apropos the subject of the thread, I have commissioned Mr. Bunce of Hiram's Hospital to whittle a votive statue of Mr. Mandela, olive branch in one hand and a burning Michelin in the other...seems to strike the balance perfectly.

6 December 2013 17:33  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Finished off with a halo of humbugs...

6 December 2013 17:35  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Better not tell the Inspector about colouring the map pink.He will get the wrong idea what with all your double entendres.
Better not mention to him the Belgian Congo either.

6 December 2013 17:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



A media darling dies – continued

No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin…[and the rest of it]

Well done Mandela, we are in agreement at least on that then. It takes acts of violence, of maiming, of murder, of rape, of theft, of envy, of contempt, of corruption, and a large dollop of good old black racism to get there. (Yes, it’s true, black people can and do exhibit racism, and its cousin tribalism. Who’d have believe that !).

Wiki.Necklacing returned to South Africa in 2008 when black South Africans turned against black immigrants from the rest of Africa. The influx of immigrants led to violence, looting, and murder in some of South Africa’s poorest areas; this violence included necklace lynching.[9] This raised concerns that the latent practice might return once more as a form of public protest in the wake of service delivery failures by the ruling African National Congress (ANC).[10]

South Africa at the moment is not exactly a shining exception and proof that the African continent is not cursed but it’s the best going. Only the indigenous people are cursed and for sure. But there is hope for them of sorts – get the white man to run their countries for them again, and sit back and enjoy again the peace and prosperity these feckless and weak examples of mankind threw away all those decades ago…





6 December 2013 17:43  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Manfarang, really one is quite at a loss to know what you mean by my 'double entendres'... I simply tell it as it is. As for the Belgian Congo, I think I once danced it at the Summer Ball at Gatherum Castle...not as stately as the Quadrille but fun nonetheless...tell me, do you cut a rug?

6 December 2013 17:44  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

...or wear one?

6 December 2013 17:47  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Inspector
Its now the Great Leap Forward

6 December 2013 17:50  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
Nope I don't have any longyis or kilts.

6 December 2013 18:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...



Anyway, rant over. Deary me, where are my manners...

Good evening Mrs Proudie, one hopes you are well. And to you too Manfarang. One sees our splendid example of womanhood has your juices running tonight...



6 December 2013 18:03  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Mrs Proudie
I have the Chinese Girl.
The Green Lady(as it is also called) is on public display at Delaire Graff Estate near Stellenbosch.

6 December 2013 18:12  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Ah dear Inspector, I wondered if you would notice me this evening, wallflower that I am! Manfarang and I have been conversing most amiably, though he seemed rather vexed with me at first and then commented on my double entendres (along with Mr. Explorer)...all I can say is that my fichu conceals them rather well, and the Whitby jet is rather distracting. Thank you for enquiring if I am well, dear Inspector - yes, I am in good health thank you. However, my Lord has received a letter from the PM proposing to translate him to the bishopric of Zanzibar...having no desire to be someone's 'amuse bouche' I have made it quite clear we are not moving from Barchester.

6 December 2013 18:13  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Manfarang - you have the Chinese Girl? Then my dear Sir I entreat you to release her immediately! Too many cases of unlawful imprisonment and latter-day slavery have hit the headlines recently. One shudders at the very thought of 'public display' and recommends several yards of black bombazine.

6 December 2013 18:16  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

I once met a SA Doctor couple in SA.

They were very interested in the cost of living in the UK. In SA together they were earning £50K pa.

The next time they contacted me they were in the UK earning more than £200K pa

Apparently parts of SA have in excess of 50% unemployment. Is anyone really surprised? Who would invest in SA unless it was for the short term?

The Doctors now run a feet or air ambulances, transporting those that can pay (lots) out of SA and other African countries, for treatment.

Is the HQ of this extremely lucrative company in SA?

You Guess!

Phil

6 December 2013 18:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Zanzibar ! Good lord, not even quite sure where that is. Is it pink ?

Best keep your fichu under wraps dear lady, hardly the weather for it...



6 December 2013 18:23  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

SA is a beautiful country with a lovely climate.

If they sort out the crime I might even give up Wales to retire there.

But what is the chance of that happening?

Phil

6 December 2013 18:25  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Dear Mrs Proudie
I think I am the one who is rather imprisoned.( what with all those visa restrictions on foreign spouses)Anyway I get plenty of oolong tea and gaeng massaman.Also she makes sure the Nation newspaper is always delivered.Plenty of coverage of
the bit of bother going on at the moment in the metropolis.

6 December 2013 18:30  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Phil
Well there is always Chiang Mai to retire to.
There were some Rhodesians living there(they were involved in the tabacco industry).
One fellow opened a Rhodesian Embassy in Hua Hin but someone must have told him to shut up shop.

6 December 2013 18:45  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness, dear Manfarang! So, you are the one imprisoned? Have no fear - I have sent Mr. Slope with a crack team of oldies from Hiram Hospital to liberate you immediately. Mr. Slope is an expert in getting people out of the closet, so I am told, therefore you are in safe hands. Whether they are warm or not is another matter.

6 December 2013 18:46  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Dear Mrs Proudie
Mr Slope better hurry those pesky yellow shirts might take over the airport again.Warm? Some like it hot.It was 86F here today.

6 December 2013 19:02  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Yellow Shirts? Are you surrounded by a Chinese laundry?

6 December 2013 19:55  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Hello Mrs Proudie, Happy Jack is pleased to see you back.

Jack asks if Mr Slope will have his leather covered Serpent about him when he sets off on his mission to China? Hopefully it is in good shape and sturdy and can used as a weapon if necessary. Happy Jack has a recipe for Rum Balls if Mr Slope needs these.

Happy Jack thinks Nelson Mandela was okay trying to change his country and make it democratic. How could people think it right to just turn up in someone else's land, stick a flag in the ground and say it belonged to them? And then to say black people were less human? The country may have problems now but the people there are responsible for their own mistakes.

6 December 2013 19:57  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Happy Jack, Mr Slope has set off on his rescue mission complete with pith helmet, leather-covered serpent and a freshly starched set of anti-macassars (standards dear boy, standards). I am a little perturbed by your remark about sticking a flag in the ground - it undermines the very Empire on which the sun never sets. If the soldiers of the Queen had not ventured into the Hindu Kush, the practice of Thuggee would still be going on. Of course, thanks to New Labour and open doors, it still is on parts of the UK, only now we call it mugging.

6 December 2013 20:21  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

...or cultural enrichment

6 December 2013 20:22  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, Happy Jack says the beginning and ending of Empires is a large subject and not one he is an expert on. Jack thinks there is no place for it in the modern world even though it brought economic and social benefits in the past. The competition for Empires also caused many wars and still does. How Empires end and hand control to local people is also another big problem.

6 December 2013 20:39  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear dear Happy Jack, empires are still being created, fought for and planned for, only the form and substance is not the same as in previous times. Do have a hobnob...

6 December 2013 20:47  
Blogger Chelliah Laity said...

Judging from the many comments here tis the season for old diehard colonials to come out of the closet because a Black man is making history.

6 December 2013 20:49  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Chelliah Laity - no my dear, a former terrorist is making history...he just happens to be black

6 December 2013 20:57  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, Happy Jack agrees empires are still being formed by different methods. He also says that Nelson Mandela may have been a terrorist but he left prison a reformed man and tried to follow a different path - or, rather, returned to his earlier Christian beliefs.

Hello Chelliah Laity, Happy Jack has just read some of your blog and found it very interesting and informative.

6 December 2013 21:19  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Mrs Proudie

I'll bet you half a crown to a hobnob that the Chinese Empire is just round the corner. The current talk about ending the one child policy suggests that within another generation they'll have the manpower to make it work.

6 December 2013 21:37  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Uncle Brian, I fear you may be right. Happy Jack, you too may be right about Nelson Mandela, but whilst so much attention is being focused on our secular saint, I shall be praying for his victims and their families - little people who seem to have been overlooked. Not by me, dear Jack, not by me.

6 December 2013 21:50  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mrs Proudie @ 16.30 says, 'Mr. Slope prefers to take the odd Battenburg in the privacy of his chambers, which may account for the noise.'

Heavens! Poor Dickie, he did so love dressing up, or so they say.

6 December 2013 22:10  
Blogger Chelliah Laity said...

Happy Jack - Thank you very much for your kind words.

6 December 2013 22:28  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Mrs Proudie, nor by Happy Jack. Yet, we do not know whether without Nelson Mandela there may have been more victims.

Have you seen the post above Bluedog's? Some witch is advertising her potions!

6 December 2013 22:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Chelliah Laity, you are most welcome. Jack sees you have an insight and an understanding of the lives of ordinary people and the troubles they face.

6 December 2013 22:39  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

It always amazed me that the Boers just surrendered SA to the Communists after they had seen what had happened to the rest of Africa

The ANC were finished at the time, the military wing was riddled with AIDS, their Russian backers were bankrupt. No wonder Mandela acted the way he did, he had lot and they were handing him the country on a plate. He could not believe his luck!


Phil



7 December 2013 04:24  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Jack

"How could people think it right to just turn up in someone else's land, stick a flag in the ground and say it belonged to them?"

Because one group of people were stronger than the other group. It happens all the time. In the part of Africa I lived in one group was dominant and still is, because they arrived about 150 years ago, killed most of the males and many of the females, shipped the rest off to be slaves via the Arabs and kept a few extra women for themselves.

If you want to be totally objective, the whites lost because they were too nice. If they had followed the examples of the African people they encountered, they would still be in charge now.

Look at Nigeria or the Central African Republic, if you do not believe me. The African Christians understand that if they do not fight and crucially if they do not win, they will not just become second class citizens under new Muslims rulers.

They will be dead.

Phil

7 December 2013 04:41  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Post at 04:24 should read he had lost. not lot.

7 December 2013 04:42  
Blogger Frater minor said...

I have read the comments about Nelson Mandela's communism and his role in SAs abortion and gay marriage laws.
I have to say that I am not convinced of the thesis that he was not a Christian
You may disagree with abortion and gay marriage-I certainly do - but we should not regard these as shibboleths to indicate his spiritual state.

I think he might indeed have been a communist at some point in his life, but i suspect that something happened while in prison. His work for reconciliation with his enemies suggests something of the work of the Holy Spirit



Frater minor

7 December 2013 08:35  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

If abortion and Gay marriage are not enough Frater, how about necklacing?

Or IRA style bombing?

The SA doctors I mentioned above were expert at spinal injuries. Why because the ANC were also keen on inserting a sharp spoke off a bike into your spine if you veered off the party line. They apparently got quite good at it knowing which vertebrae to damage to cause varying amounts of disability in their victims. Which of course would return to their communities where their punishment was visible and a constant reminder to everyone.

Apologies for these acts when they came to power? No. All part of the "legitimate struggle" that Mandela continued to endorse until his death.

If he really was a Christian I would have expected to see repentance Frator, at the very least.

Phil

7 December 2013 10:08  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

The big danger for everyone is of course that the world now has a new hero and he was a communist.

Stalin Mao etc were bag guys history will say, but what about Mandela. He was a good communist. Communism has evolved, the argument will go, nothing to worry about now, look at Mandela.

The good communist.

Phil

7 December 2013 10:13  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Noting the alleged crimes of Mandela on this blog, I contrast that with the total absence of, even a whiff of this, on the media, unless I missed something ? Usually there is something, somewhere, but in this case just universal acclamation. Any comments ?

As I said earlier I haven't lived in Africa, haven't studied it and have not visited any of its countries south of the Islamic ones bordering the Med., apart from Ethiopia which I have toured. As such I claim no particular insight or knowledge.

7 December 2013 11:42  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Phil Roberts,

From the little history that I have read of SA I understand that the area was invaded by "Bantu" from the north, at about the same time that the Dutch Boer landed at the Cape and started pushing northwards. I also recall that the Bantu (is that the right tribe?) slaughtered the original, earlier and in fact ancient peoples, The Bushmen, a race of exceptionally small people with some interesting physical features adapted to desert living.
The line that the author was putting (whose name I forget as this was not recently) is that neither the white Boer or the Bantu could really claim to be true, natives in the sense that people tend to automatically assume. Only the Bushmen are natives and everyone overlooks them. But because the invaders from the north were Africans, black people, they were assumed to have a greater moral claim on the land.
But did not we all originate from Africa, so are we not all African in a deeper sense I muse ? Surely if skin colour is not now held to be crucial nowadays does the not the whole argument become more than a little clouded ? Things are seldom as clear cut I feel as the popular media would have us believe.

7 December 2013 11:53  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Is South Africa a communist state? A People's Republic? No, of course it isn't. So what difference does it make if Mandela supported the Communist Party, or was even a party member? No difference at all, obviously. What counts is what is out there in the real world, his achievement.

7 December 2013 12:06  
Blogger The Explorer said...

One way of gauging the health of a country is the state of its currency.

A year ago, there were around 12.5 Rand to the Pound. Today, there are around 16.

7 December 2013 12:41  
Blogger Frater minor said...

I feel just as much revulsion as anyone here at the violence that goes on in Africa, be it necklacing, machetes, or just old-fashioned guns

However, I feel it is worth pointing out that the transition to majority rule in SA had nothing like the violence seen in earlier revolutions like the French Revolution, the Russian, Chinese, or Cambodian revolts
I am convinced that this fact is in large part due to Nelson Mandela's character and faith


Frater minor

7 December 2013 13:53  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

David

Around 1820 various Zulus under Chaka undertook the "long walk North" There were various waves of them at different times. The vast majority were comprised of groups of several hundred single men.

"The displacement of the Ngoni people in the great scattering following the Zulu wars had repercussions in social reorganization as far north as Malawi and Zambia"

Notice, that it is described as "social reorganization" which is presumably the PC term for what I described earlier!


Livingstone saw numerous atrocities at first hand.

"In 1862 they returned to the coast to await the arrival of a steam boat specially designed to sail on Lake Malawi. Mary Livingstone also arrived along with the boat. She died on 27 April 1862 of malaria and Livingstone continued his explorations. Attempts to navigate the Ruvuma River failed because of the continual fouling of the paddle wheels from the bodies thrown in the river by slave traders, and Livingstone's assistants gradually died or left him"

Also in Malawi

"About 20, 000 slaves (Pachai, P.A. 1968) were annually shipped by Jumbe to Kilwa from Nkhotakota. The captives were kept until they number 1000 and taken across the lake and then forced to walk for three to four month journey to Kilwa where they were sold."

Note that the Arabs rarely went and got slaves themselves. Slaves were brought to them by victorious African peoples and the Arabs exchanged them for consumer goods.

The point I am making is that Africa has never been a land where back people live in harmony with one another.

Where I was the hatred of certain tribes was still there.

They treated me as a white man differently perhaps, but I also had money and was an employer so I would be treated differently anyway whatever my skin colour. I got on very well with Africans and if you ask me God has got a lot more of their names on his book that we have in the West.

Before I go though. In 1960 the income of an average professional in my part of Africa. Teacher/ Doctor etc was about 1/3 of the UK. When I was there 25 years later it was 1/10th. You could hire a labourer for the day for 20p and they were pleased to get work.

You think that communism does not matter? In this people's "democratic" paradise, I regularly saw young girls aged between 10 and 16 standing at the roadside, raising their dresses to passing cars. So before we get blasé about losing our economy.

That is how bad it can get.

Phil



7 December 2013 14:12  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Frater

"I am convinced that this fact is in large part due to Nelson Mandela's character and faith"

He wanted an intact economy. I am not saying he was stupid, far from it.

Phil

7 December 2013 14:16  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack says he does not know all the complicated history of Africa or its tribes or the Boars or all this stuff about the economy.

Jack has been looking into Nelson Mandela's life a bit and watching and listening to his talks and interviews. Jack notices that all the people Nelson met when he left prison seem to have been changed for the better in some way. Jack has never seen any evidence of hatred or badness spoken by him, just a calm determination to make South Africa a better country for everybody. Most white and black people trusted him to his best for them and not just for himself or one group and Jack believes he honoured his promises as best he could.

Happy Jack says he wonders how all these people moaning about him would have reacted if they had been put in prison for 27 years. Imagine leaving prison with all the power he had to get revenge?

7 December 2013 14:34  
Blogger Frater minor said...

Happy Jack,

That is exactly my view

He was in prison for a long time, at the end of which he could have been filled either with bitterness and hatred, or with a desire for love and reconciliation

The evidence of his actions after his release suggest to me that he chose the way of love, and that is a work of the Holy Spirit


Frater minor

7 December 2013 14:47  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Happy Jack, aka the Sage of Durham, as usual makes perfect sense.

As always, rather.

7 December 2013 15:05  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Happy Jack:

Yes, there could have been an inter-racial bloodbath after the handover of power if Mandela had not been as gracious and magnanimous as he was. (And whatever his actual motives: which I don't presume to know.) That is his great legacy.

But he has not been running things for a while, South Africa is currently the murder capital of the world, and the question is how long his legacy can last.

I have read Martin Meredith's 'The State of Africa' from cover to cover, and it is a grim read. The progress of Botswana is literally the ONLY example in the entire book to life the spirits.

On a lighter note, Theodore Dalrymple notes in 'Zanzibar to Timbuktu' how much happier Africans are than the populations of the West. I'm sure Phil Roberts (14:12) is right: God has a lot of their names on his book. I hope so, given all they have had to put up with.

7 December 2013 15:09  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I agree with this:

'Look; I’m sorry Nelson Mandela is dead. It happens quite often to people in their 90s who have been very ill, even famous people, but I’m sure that doesn’t lessen the sadness for many of us. I never met the man but, on balance, I came to the conclusion that he was a force for good rather than ill. I think I came to that rather banal and broad brush conclusion twenty years ago, or maybe fifteen. So, I’m sorry he’s dead, I wish it were otherwise.

But for Christ’s sake BBC, give it a bloody break for five minutes, will you? It’s as if the poor bugger now has to bear your entire self-flagellating white post-colonial bien pensant guilt; look! Famous nice black man dies! Let’s re-run the entire history of South Africa. That’s better than watching the country we’re in being flattened by a storm.'


Rod Liddle

7 December 2013 15:49  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! I have just read Peter Oborne's tribute comparing Mandela to Jesus Christ. I think I want to puke.

7 December 2013 16:31  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Guys

He was put in prison for planning acts of murder.

There was no reason to hate anyone. It was a very lenient sentence and justified.

In most countries he would have been hanged for the crime at that time.

Including here in the UK

Phil

7 December 2013 16:33  
Blogger JW said...

You seem to have made the common error of thinking someone is a Christian because he once said something nice to a group of Christians.
Pleasing your target audience in a speech does not mean you one of them. It just means you are a politician

7 December 2013 16:35  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Dreadnaught, Happy Jack says if the world can't pause to reflect on the life of a man who was a force for good in his country at a critical moment in its history, then what sort of world would you have us live in? And it isn't just the BBC that is telling his story. There are lessons for us all in appreciating the lives of good men, the events and times that shaped them and the forces they resisted.

Uncle Brian and Frater minor, Happy Jack thanks you for your encouraging words.

Explorer, Happy Jack recalls Moses did not enter the Promised Land and have to deal with all the issues facing the tribes of Israel as they built a nation. And we know Israel made a hash of things at times too. Sometimes marching towards a promise is a lot easier than dealing with it once it is obtained.

Ps
Can somebody please explain to Jack how you change letters into bold and italics on here?

7 December 2013 16:35  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Mrs Proudie of Barchester


"Goodness! I have just read Peter Oborne's tribute comparing Mandela to Jesus Christ. I think I want to puke"


The BBC and others are preparing to make him the "Atheist/Communist Saint".

After all there are precious few other Atheist/Communists to choose from

Phil

7 December 2013 16:37  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Jack

do this < followed by i followed by > close the quoted text with < followed by / followed by i followed by >. For bold sub i for b

7 December 2013 16:45  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

HJ

if the world can't pause to reflect on the life of a man who was a force for good in his country at a critical moment in its history, then what sort of world would you have us live in?

He was a politician and they all carry some kind of toxicity. Mandela was leader of a group prepared to engage in terror tactics. Those of us who served in NI saw the terrorism of the Provos not only against us but also to enforce 'discipline' of their own. I know McGuinness and Adams are guilty of directing terrorism but to hear them now they are the talking white doves of reason.

Mandela's past may well have been argued as a reasonable or expected response to apartheidt and white only enfranchisement, but is there anywhere in Africa as continent where African nations have it safe, prosperous or fair for their citizens?

Realistically Mandela will be missed more by the like of ANC multi-millionaires Zuma and Mbeki for the smokescreen of democracy his living presence afforded.

7 December 2013 17:13  
Blogger Naomi King said...

Mandela was no saint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKO7MmJ60zY

7 December 2013 17:39  
Blogger Corrigan said...

At any given time, there are - if we are lucky - perhaps six people worldwide who can be termed "great", and by great I mean Picasso or Newton or Einstein great, or in the political sphere, Churchill great or Roosevelt great. I don't mean a "great" footballer, or a "great" singer as the word "great" is commonly used, I mean somebody of such magnificence that his presence on the Earth enriched us and his passing diminished us (and, despite the fact that he was a debauched, parasitic scumbag, Churchill does, actually, come into the category, although it would take a volume to explain why).

Nelson Mandela was a great man.

7 December 2013 17:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dreadnaught said...

Just when Ernst thinks you are a complete tw^tter you come up with comments like this.

"if the world can't pause to reflect on the life of a man who was a force for good in his country at a critical moment in its history, then what sort of world would you have us live in?

He was a politician and they all carry some kind of toxicity. Mandela was leader of a group prepared to engage in terror tactics. Those of us who served in NI saw the terrorism of the Provos not only against us but also to enforce 'discipline' of their own. I know McGuinness and Adams are guilty of directing terrorism but to hear them now they are the talking white doves of reason.

Mandela's past may well have been argued as a reasonable or expected response to apartheidt and white only enfranchisement, but is there anywhere in Africa as continent where African nations have it safe, prosperous or fair for their citizens?

Realistically Mandela will be missed more by the like of ANC multi-millionaires Zuma and Mbeki for the smokescreen of democracy his living presence afforded."

You truly are an enigmatic old sod!

Blofeld

7 December 2013 17:43  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Enough of the sycophantic burblings isn't is about time HG changed the subject? Has he gone part time I wonder?

7 December 2013 18:01  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

As Baldrick would have it - "...takes all sorts Mr B - takes all sorts"

7 December 2013 18:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

One puts it to you all who think Mandela was a great man you believe as the lefty media have conditioned you to believe...

Look in the mirror. See yourself with an ass’s head and ears...

7 December 2013 18:47  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Dreadnaught, Happy Jack thanks you for explaining how to make bold print.

Jack does not think it right to compare Nelson Mandela with the terrorists of Northern Ireland. He agrees Nelson was not perfect and knows many people are against him for his early turning to terrorism and his then policies on homosexuality and abortion when he was President. Some also think he could have done more for the economy and to end corruption. Maybe he could have done more but he was an older man and just one man and had a lot of other people to deal with.

Happy Jack has read about this chap Jacob Zuma and agrees he is not good and South Africa might be in bigger trouble now Nelson has gone. Evil people often hide behind and use good men.

7 December 2013 18:51  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

HJ you're welcome.

I wasn't comparing Mandela directly to those two; more to highlight 'one man's freedom-fighter' and all that and that. As successive generations assume the centre of opinion, unless imbued with old age cynicism at an early age, they will be conditioned to accept the myths, revisionism and half truths that will have become the popular norm.

7 December 2013 19:05  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Happy Jack has looked in the mirror and just sees himself. No "ass’s head and ears..." Jack says you have not put forward reasons for your opinions other than black people cannot rule themselves. Is that it?

7 December 2013 19:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Jack. A bit of bedtime reading for you...

Look up the definitions of ‘terrorist’ ‘Marxist’ ‘Invert racism’ and ‘gullible’

7 December 2013 19:22  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

... oh, and thank you again Dreadnaught. Jack does not completely disagree with your views about "myths, revisionism and half-truths." Jack can only base his opinion on what he has read and listened to, both good and bad, about Nelson Mandela and the times in which he lived and the struggles he faced.

7 December 2013 19:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Jack. While you’re at it, perhaps some good words about the struggles Lenin faced...

7 December 2013 19:37  
Blogger Roy said...

What a miserable bunch of hypocrites! Reading some of the comments on this blog makes me want to puke. One objected to Mandela being compared to Christ. What on earth is the Holy Spirit for, if not to make us more like Christ?

I admit that when people study me they would be very hard put to notice any resemblance between me and the Master, but that does not mean that I cannot see aspects of Christ in the lives of other people.

Some people said Mandela was a terrorist. He, and members of the ANC probably thought that they were like members of resistance groups in occupied countries during World War II. Communists were prominent in some of those. Moses was a murder, and some of the Jewish prophets were guilty of war crimes, but that won't bother the cynical, self-righteous types who criticise Mandela.

I am sure that there are many things about Mandela that could legitimately be criticised but he made South Africa a better country than it would have been without him and was, and remains, a far better role model than most politicians and other well known people.

7 December 2013 19:37  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

As South Africa devolves into Zimbabwe redux, the Western nations will increasingly look away. There isn't much they could do and even less they would be willing to do. They can't really intervene on behalf of a white minority having sat on their collective hands over Rwanda. The wise and the fortunate will leave SA. The unfortunate will be caught in the coming maelstrom. And enlightened western opinion will be left to explain how the butchery is all the legacy of apartheid. The victim made responsible for his own victimhood.

Tragedy is coming, but no one will say of it "Never again."

carl

7 December 2013 19:41  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, silly man, Happy Jack knows what those words mean already. Jack says you still have to make your case if you want him to take your views seriously.

7 December 2013 19:41  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Agree with many. Once The Great Man is buried and we have all 'reflected' then perhaps some brave journalist will evaluate the rates of rape, murder, armed robbery and AIDS in South Africa since majority rule.

No doubt any negative outcomes will be subject to thr tuled of the old liberal left game 'blame whitey'.

7 December 2013 20:11  
Blogger HKS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 20:12  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

.......the rules of the old liberal left game 'blame whitey'.

7 December 2013 20:13  
Blogger HKS said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 20:17  
Blogger bluedog said...

Any word from the BBC or the Guardian about the 2000 plus white farmers who have been murdered in SA since 1994?

Well said RSA @ 20.13. In the immortal word of DanJO, vomo.

7 December 2013 20:18  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 20:22  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Carl @ 19:41

The wise and the fortunate WILL leave SA? Statistics are hard to come by, but it seems that around a million whites (around 20%) have left already, before the death of Mandela.

Those remaining may well be financially unable to leave, even if they want to.

I take you to be drawing a comparison with the fate of Jews trapped in Germany. I see where you're coming from, but majority British/European opinion would, I think, be incredulous. It's a rainbow nation: even with Mandela gone. Feel the love.

Those who did not simply laugh at you would think you mad; if not outright evil to harbour such malign imaginings.

7 December 2013 20:26  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

he made South Africa a better country than it would have been without him

It wasn't even a country until the Christian Old Testament believing, Dutch settlers took to developing the Cape region. After two hundred years they had a more legitimate claim to be regarded as indigenous than many black tribes or the British. They farmed and cleared the land long before the rush for minerals and long before various nomadic tribal migrants became numerous.

I say we Credit to them as the real founders of South Africa before any condemnation of a short lived political policy.

7 December 2013 20:30  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Correction : the proper name for Zimbabweeeee is 'Rhodesia'

No it's not: it's Southern Rhodesia.

7 December 2013 20:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

What happened in Zimbabwe should be credited to Zimbabwe. Rhodesia no longer exists.

carl

7 December 2013 20:43  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 20:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Jack. “Jack says you still have to make your case if you want him to take your views seriously. “

All this man can do is to guide you. Do your own investigating, and do not swallow ‘received wisdom’ as to what is truth. It invariably disappoints, you see....

7 December 2013 20:57  
Blogger TigerO said...

The transition of South Africa negotiated in 1992 is complex in many ways. Many characters may credited with this transition. Mandela was the icon Socialists in the West were seeking. A hero after the many disastrous leaders who had gone before.

So how was the transition achieved and why. Militarily South Africa was right up there. Capable of putting 2 million men on to the battlefield. Most of these men were already battle hardened after a ten year war on the Namibia border. Military sanctions had forced South Africa into the armaments industry and they lacked for nothing accept advanced fighter jets which was an area of development with the Israelis. With Israeli help they had just installed one of the most sophisticated air defense systems in the World. In 1990 they were the World's 4th largest weapons manufacturer.

Given all the above no rag tag bunch of amateur guerrillas was going to take the country by force.

Years of instability, increasing violence were causing many talented professionals to leave the country. International pressure on multinational companies meant few were investing in the country and many that were there, were considering leaving because of the interference in operations.

Politically amongst the white electorate people were starting to polarize. The extreme right wing was becoming stronger as internal security started to deteriorate. There was a real threat that large numbers of the permanent forces in the army could defect right and this could result in a coup.

Most of the credit for the transition must go to F W de Klerk and Foreign Affairs Minister, Pik Botha. From what I heard from a mediator in the transition negotiations it was a case of these 2 men putting to Mandela and Sisulu; here's the deal, leave the business sector alone, negotiate a constitution that gives ordinary people the right to appeal against Parliamentary decisions in the Constitutional Court, and protect the constitution.

The alternative was that things could get a lot worse if the army decided to lock down the country and crush political dissent.

7 December 2013 21:49  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Explorer

I believe they will look away because the evidence will be undeniable and yet they will not want to believe it. They have too much invested in the viability of SA as a successful example of multiculturalism. When the blood starts to flow, they will have to find some way to reconcile reality with their ideology. So they will claim the burden of apartheid was too much to overcome. Then they will change the subject.

In the meantime, they will react pretty much as you suggest. But they won't be able to maintain that facade forever.

carl

7 December 2013 22:04  
Blogger Hannah said...

Well whatever Dredgenaught and Carl, I stand corrected, put down and corrected.

Am I boovered?

NO!

Anyways,I'm at our local's 'Mandela tribute' night.... perhaps you guys need to 'get out'once in a while ?

First song from the DJ is -

'Stayin' alive, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alive'

*Laters*

7 December 2013 22:07  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Tiger O

About right, except for one important thing.

De Klerk was wrong like Ian Smith before him.

For a short while in both countries I really thought the Chamberlain approach might work out.

Phil

7 December 2013 22:09  
Blogger Hannah said...

So Carl,

Something for you to think about-

Basically you think that Apartheid was a good thing? So segregation in the deep south was OK too? That the civil rights movement was wrong? You don't see that your own country is a multi-culture and multi-religious and multi ethnic society? Oh and all of your stuff against Inspector was really just about arguing rather than any genuine belief in racial equality and that when it came to the civil war, you shouldn't have fought it because the principals of the South were just and correct?

WOW! Mention commies and it is strange how you can just flip your views there.

7 December 2013 22:12  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 22:21  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Happy Jack says we should try to see Nelson Mandela for the man he was and for what he did and said during his life time. He was one man. He's not responsible for all the forces present today in Africa or for all of African history since Europeans first arrived there! And he's not responsible for what comes next.

Happy Jack asks: does anyone seriously want to defend the brutality of apartheid? Can anyone say it would have ended less violently but for Nelson Mandela and maybe with a Communist system?

7 December 2013 22:28  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

No, Hannah, I don't think think apartheid was a 'good thing.' That doesn't change the reality of what is happening in its wake. If I was living in SA I would bend every effort to get out. Just like another group of people tried to get out of another country in the 1930s. People said they were paranoid as well.

carl

7 December 2013 22:30  
Blogger Hannah said...

Except, Carl, that white South Africans , can actually get out of said country and have the cash to do so and end up here in the UK, rather than being stripped of their businesses, property, systematically rounded up and... well you know the rest.. So the Nazi analogy doesn't work here.

7 December 2013 22:38  
Blogger Hannah said...

'Happy Jack asks: does anyone seriously want to defend the brutality of apartheid? Can anyone say it would have ended less violently but for Nelson Mandela and maybe with a Communist system?'

There are enough people on this thread who are prepared to defend Apartheid, but just won't say it so explicitly so it has to boil down to 'Mandela was a Commie' or 'Multi- culturalism will fail' as if that explains everything.

7 December 2013 22:43  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Hannah

Yes, not yet anyways. And how many white citizens of SA actually have the werewithal to leave? How long before a more radical gov't looks with longing eyes at the prospect of expropriation? Remember you don't need a majority to commit violence and seize power and rule. The communists have never had majority support anywhere. All you need is a group of people with weapons and a heart cold enough to use them. Terror works.

And before you sniff at me about the limits of multiculturalism, you remember all those times I have made the exact same argument about a multicultural state in Palestine. You have never groused at me when I say Arab dominance would result in Jewish slaughter. You have supported me. Why now do you accuse me like you have?

I don't have any magic recipe for fixing this problem. I am not even sure it was ever fixable. But what happened in the past is no justification for the blood bath I see looming on the horizon. Yet I have absolutely no doubt that people will claim exactly that justification. And there will be a lot of corpses to justify.

Hindenberg is dead. Who knows what little corporal waits in the wings? This isn't going to end well for anyone in that country.

carl

7 December 2013 23:02  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hannah @ 22:38

I agree there's a difference. But consider this. There's nothing to say I'm not allowed to eat in the Ritz every day or own a Ferrari: except I couldn't afford to.

I know Brits who sold up everything, emigrated in toto to France, and then decided to return. If they'd left it too long, house prices in the meantime would have gone up so much in Britain compared to France that they couldn't afford to. No law told them they couldn't leave: other than the law of economic reality.

South-African emigres I've talked to in Britain have either had specific skills - doctors, dentists, accountants, pilots - or had assets like houses they could sell for three or four million rand.

But your average white in an average house with an average job who has reached a certain age... How do you raise the finances?

7 December 2013 23:03  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, Happy Jack suspects you may be correct if the character and behaviour of President Zuma is anything to go by. But how does this take anything away from Nelson Mandela and what he tried to do? And Jack asks, are you saying black people are basically unfit to govern themselves and need white people to control them?

7 December 2013 23:16  
Blogger Hannah said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7 December 2013 23:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

HJ

What have I said that would even begin to suggest that black people aren't fit to govern themselves? SA is a mess. White people form a perfect scapegoat for an unscrupulous agitator who desires power. They have wealth to be expropriated. They have history to be exploited. They are too few to defend themselves and yet plentiful enough to be blamed. And no one is going to come to their aid.

Does any of this sound familiar?

carl

7 December 2013 23:25  
Blogger Hannah said...

Carl/Explorer,

It doesn't matter. In the old days I'd provide a line by line response to what you've both written, but not now. See you around sometime in the future.

7 December 2013 23:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. Relax, that colonial. Black people are unable to govern themselves as Africa bears witness. What’s the problem old man, pangs of PC guilt ?

Forget your carefully crafted stance and just come out with it. Racially, they are just not up to the task...

7 December 2013 23:34  
Blogger Francis Arabin said...

Mrs Proudie,

I fear I will have to withdraw the permission for your Sabbath School Society to meet in the Cloisters. The intemperate tone of your voice during the meetings of the said society puts the whole fabric of the Cathedral at considerable physical risk.

Instead, Mrs Arabin's Women's Altar Guild meetings will take place there.

Ullathorne, 7th of December 185-

PS - The chapter will like to know whether the Bishop will be attending the funeral of the recently deceased descendant of the Shaka of the Zulus.

7 December 2013 23:40  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Don't be ridiculous, OIG The analogy I am drawing is to an explicitly white nation governed by explicitly white gangsters. This has nothing to do with race. Desparate people are susceptible to easy answers that fix blame on a visible target. That is a common feature of all men. The difference in this case is that a lot of western Liberals are going to respond by saying that the victims deserved to get it in the neck.

carl

7 December 2013 23:43  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, Happy Jack is pleased you do not share the Inspector views. Jack believes one difference to Germany is that much of the state apparatus is in the hands of the minority white people, especially the police and the army.

And Jack asks, what of Nelson Mandela? How do you assess him? A violent terrorist? A socialist? A peacemaker? Did he make any difference or just delay the inevitable?

7 December 2013 23:45  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Inspector/Francis Arabin:

Tim Butcher, in 'Blood River' directly asks the question why the African record has been so bad.

His answer is that there had been existing tribal structures that - although very different from Western concepts - worked very well. Colonialism destroyed them all: leaving the sort of limbo that still pertains today.

FA: May I respectfully draw attention to the distinction between the Xhosa and the Zulu?

7 December 2013 23:47  
Blogger Francis Arabin said...

Indeed, rumours of the belief of Mafeking have to come to us concerning the distinction between the (click)sa and the Cthulhus.

8 December 2013 00:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Explorer. One has come across the argument that Europeans should never have interacted with Africa as they did with the rest of the world. That in itself says volumes about the African nature. The very idea that tribal boundaries being supplanted by country boundaries is damn weak. It happened about hundred and fifty years ago. What happened to adapt and survive. Or is the stench of tribalism racism still detectable – as if we didn’t know the answer...



8 December 2013 00:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

HJ

I think Nelson Mandela has become an icon of what people want to be true. It doesn't matter who or what he actually was. He is now an image of the secular Kingdom of Heaven being built by diligent secular hands.

Perhaps he only delayed the inevitable. I don't know. I only know I would not have stayed in SA after the transition in the 90s. The social divergence in the country was just too great to provide long-term stability.

carl

8 December 2013 00:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Carl. One notes you posted after the Inspector levelled a direct question to you.

Is he disappointed at your lack of response ? Not at all. You see, he recognises the agony you ‘proper’ types who refuse to acknowledge the damn truth go through....


8 December 2013 00:25  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, Happy Jack says this was a neat way of avoiding his question.

Jack believes it does matter who he was, what he stood for and what is true about him so that he does not become a symbol of secularism. More needs to be said about his Christian beliefs which Jack believes influenced him more than socialism.

8 December 2013 00:33  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

Ummm ... I did respond to your question. I called it ridiculous. I didn't think it warranted any other response. If you require more, so be it. There is no problem and I am afflicted by no PC guilt.

carl

8 December 2013 00:35  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector, Nelson Mandela once said:

"The Good News borne by our risen Messiah who chose not one race, who chose not one country, who chose not one language, who chose not one tribe, who chose all of humankind!"

8 December 2013 00:38  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

H
Happy Jack says this was a neat way of avoiding his question.

Why, of all the ... That's just not ... How dare you ... YES! YES, I ADMIT IT! I was avoiding your question. I have deliberately avoiding making any statements about Mandela. How rude of you to notice.

I am not sure what to think of him. I fear I am too influenced by the opinions of those I consider ideological opponents. "The friend of my enemy" sort of thing. I honestly just don't know.

carl

8 December 2013 00:44  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Hannah

Goodness me, that was scary. What a tirade for the sake of a few opinions that say maybe Mandela was not the Christlike figure that is claimed for him by the media when alive and especially now he has died. Even today, the people of South Africa see him as a beloved leader who delivered their country from a very dark and difficult period whereas the world sees him otherwise a saint..its like Obama in the USA compared to elsewhere.

Life appears to swing from one extreme position to another depending on the collective supposed guilt of actions by others elsewhere. Ernst saw no 'guilt' from black people whilst they massacred one another in Rwanda but only the whites complaining globally and demanding action.

Apartheid was a terrible thing forced on a people who are not inferior as members of the human race.

It is claimed that Mandela was a christian and yet no one knows Nelson Mandela's personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, and strangely, no one is saying much about his faith in the media except platitudes that attribute this to him but no concrete proof he actually held these in deep sincerity as these knowingly seem to have been kept opaque as he appeared to be more of an agnostic humanist who merely used religion to achieve his ultimate goal than a faith anchored in Christ or any particular belief system.

With Mandela's government, subsidies to Christian schooling were halted in South Africa in 1994, but not because of a disliking of Christianity, but to model itself along the concepts of America. However, abandoning Christian morals left a detrimental impact on South African society as a wave of immorality, crime, and social double standards resulted and if there was a further criticism of Mandela’s policies, it is the lack of prosecution for the murder of over 3,000 white farmers since 1994 which has given rise to lawlessness.

The South African Institute of Race Relations estimated that between 1995 and 2005, 841,000 white South Africans have left South Africa. As coloured and white people each make up 8.9% of the total population that is a large number of people leaving.
Imagine the equivalent number of black people leaving the UK as they feel they have no future or safety here also?
Would their concerns therefore be relevant or just plain racist? As blacks, Arabs etc who live here are able to raise their concerns for their fellow race in other lands, why are whites refused the same courtesy for their own in other places or do whites not matter. We must reap what we have supposedly sewn?

If you want to judge him solely as a good man, why not just say so, rather than say something that ain't true...or was Karl Marx then a good believing Jew on his way, like Nelson Mandela ,walking towards an eternal freedom with the Almighty or can we not question that validity by what he DID NOT SAY?

Your views appear strange considering the sidelining of Jewish voice in SA politics via democratic Alliance to an historical footnote. The country's Jewish community is now half the size it was 40 years ago and its members fear accusations of racism if they criticise the black government.

Recent incidents in the ANC have been labelled by angry Jews as anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, such as the party’s Western Cape leader's wooing of Muslim voters by equating the DA with support for Israel, and saying it gives business to Jews in preference to Muslims. Jewish sentiments veer mostly towards the DA and not ANC.

Blofeld

ps

You accuse others of things then storm off the Blog in a hissy fit strop...Women are strange creatures?

8 December 2013 00:52  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl, that answer made Happy Jack chuckle and he agrees it's best not to offer an opinion if you're not sure. Jack says don't let the secularists cloud your judgement too much just because they want to shape him in their image.

Blowers, Happy Jack thinks Hannah may have been drinking.

Jack says there is information available about Nelson Mandela's religious beliefs if you look but it is controversial because politically he allowed the policies of the ANC about abortion and homosexuality in South Africa.

8 December 2013 01:12  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

pss

Happy Jack asked

"And Jack asks, what of Nelson Mandela? How do you assess him? A violent terrorist? (Yes) A socialist(Yes)? A peacemaker(Yes)?

A very flawed individual elevated to a status unbecoming the facts and the true legacy. There was no true last peace neither will there be (as we see the corruption spreading and whites will soon be blamed for the lack of advancement in reducing the poverty of the poorest blacks) and all He could give was a legitimate promise to the West that the feared all out blood-fest would not occur on his watch, which it did not but he appeared to turn his eyes away from the atrocities to the white farmers that have lead to ongoing lawlessness, militia like.

Did he make any difference (He did) or just delay the inevitable (He did)? "

Do watch an interview with a minister regarding an interview with Nelson Mandela ;

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTFhaUYmzV0

Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKO7MmJ60zY&feature=youtu.be

For a detailed talk with Nelson Mandela and the spiteful action carried out against the two ministers for daring to ask pertinent questions of a christian nature to him.

Blowers

Ppps

"Inspector, Nelson Mandela once said:

"The Good News borne by our risen Messiah who chose not one race, who chose not one country, who chose not one language, who chose not one tribe, who chose all of humankind!""

This is what david cameron said...

David Cameron told the assembled guests that he welcomed a Christian “fightback”. He said: “I think there’s something of a fightback going on, and we should welcome that. The values of the Bible, the values of Christianity, are the values that we need.”

Interestingly, this is what Jesus said about marriage, which Mr Cameron wants to change into a ‘gay’ version:

Mar 10:6 “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

Gordon Brown said 08 May 2009,;

According to Downing Street information, the Prime Minister issued the message for Buddhists in Britain as they getting ready to celebrate Wesak, the festival marking the Load Buddha’s 2632nd birthday.

In his message the British PM said "I wanted to take this opportunity to wish you a very happy Wesak. Britain’s Buddhists will join with others around the world to reflect on the birth and enlightenment of Lord Buddha and I wanted to let you know that my thoughts are with you as you celebrate this Buddha Day".

He further said"The Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path have brought so much peace to so many and we can all learn from Buddhist philosophy and the practice of mindfulness.

"Today we should reflect on the great spiritual contribution that Buddhism has made to the world and congratulate Britain’s Buddhists for their vibrant contribution to our national life. Please do pass on my best wishes to your family and friends".

Do note lad, all three are/were politicians and they say things to please and tickle the ears of the gullible! e ye not taken in, my boy

8 December 2013 01:28  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Ordinarily Xhosa funerals are held on the second Saturday after the death and the body is brought to the house just before the funeral.

On the day of the funeral the entire family and friends of the deceased gather and many people are expected make speeches.

Again on the day of the funeral, or some time soon afterwards, elders go out and buy a cow and slaughter it very early in the morning. The men cook the cow in big pots full of boiling water and they do not add any spice. Then everyone eats the meat outside of the house. Traditionally, all the meat must be eaten before any other food is served.

Next the elders speak to the ancestors and all are expected to be solemn and serious during this time and guests are asked to maintain a respectful silence.

The Xhosa believe that dead people carry messages to the ancestors asking to be remembered and forgiven. The writer of the blog adds, “In this way we send the dead person to their new home, so that they can become a true ancestor. Our prayers help them find the way. This we call, ‘Umkapho’.”

This ceremony is only carried out for men as the Xhosa believe women are born with intuition which means they know how to do this without help.

Next traditional beer, meat, flowers and a white candle are set up in a corner of the house. The beer and the meat are for the ancestors to taste. The burning candle keeps the bad spirits away.

According to the blog writer: “Some of us don’t like children to come to the funerals, because of the bad spirits, because children can see more than the adults can, and they do not want you to be disturbed by what you see. But I think if we speak openly to one another about these things children can deal with them quite well.”

The writer continues, “We must never burn our dead. We must always bring them back to the place they belong to, so that they can be reunited with all the ancestors and sleep in the ground they were taken from.”

“There we put them into the grave. We also put food for them and their walking stick and other things into the grave that they might need.”

8 December 2013 02:33  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

On the day after the funeral the Xhosa sprinkle family and guests alike with water and herbs to cleanse them from any ‘shadows’ they may have picked up.

The clan decides together how long ukuzila (mourning) should be. It can be anywhere from six months to a year.

During that time women, particularly wives of the deceased, have to wear black and stay at home. The men usually wear a black button or scarf.

At the end of the mourning period, the women of the family gather round the widow and bring her new clothes. They take her old, black clothes off and burn them. Then they dress her in new colourful clothes on her.”

This ceremony is called, “Khulula izila” (which means take off from mourning.)

Xhosa men do not have this ritual.

After about a year after the death, and sometimes longer than a year later the family then hold an “Umbuyiso” ceremony in which the Xhosa people celebrate the deceased becoming “a real ancestor” who has the power to return to help and protect the bereaved.

The Xhosa believe that the dead at this time are just in hiding (this is what the Xhosa word for funeral means). “They cannot be seen, but they watch over us.”

During this ceremony, the Blogger writes, “We welcome him home. So we slaughter another cow. This time the women prepare the meat with spices in the way the person would have liked. And we eat the meat inside the house and celebrate together that they have come back to us.”

All the above as arranged by Mandela himself is hardly christian Methodist, is it Jack Lad.

Just as RC can embrace voodooism amongst it's African origin congregation so is ancestral worship done for mandela despite the travesty of a christian service being done to keep the gullible believers in the west and in S A happy.
Satan must be laughing his clogs off at the stupidity of those gathered round such a shaman ceremony for a 'Christian' and who really should know better.

I am too old for this kind of rubbish and have never sought the approval of men or the crowd for the sake of joining in pointless platitudes if the person is obviously dubious but Cranny appears to enjoying this diana-esque nonsense and even calls the fellow a believer, who was not a political prisoner but a terrorist by his OWN admission in court and sentenced as such!

(Mandela was a trained Law Clerk in his own right so knew what he was pleading guilty to).

Don Corleone may not have been a model citizen, but even he called a halt to the mob war after Sonny’s death. He asked the Heads of the Five Families, Mandela style , “How did things ever get so far?”

Perhaps by this general reasoning, even Vito Corleone was on his way to salvation and Heaven then and worthy of a post by HG?

8 December 2013 02:54  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Blowers, Happy Jack asks where that blog says this is what Nelson Mandela has requested for himself? Jack looked, and it doesn't.

Happy Jack watched those interviews you suggested and then researched that chap Peter Hammond and his beliefs and the organisations he supports. Jack knows who he'd sooner trust with the with welfare of a nation like South Africa during Mandela's time as President. Jack agrees Nelson Mandela was wrong on these family and moral policies but we do not know what political pressure he faced and he was only one man leading a party with many views.

Consider the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa to the Nuremberg Trials after World War II. Happy Jack is still thinking this one over but it was certainly a different approach.

Happy Jack says Jesus will judge Nelson and its for us to reflect on his life and see if it has any lessons for us as we struggle along trying to make sense of this crazy, mixed up world.

8 December 2013 03:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Inspector @ 00:3

Butcher's book is about the Congo. He implies, without saying outright, that there will be re-colonisation: this time by the Chinese.

Katanga province: rich in raw materials. Difficulty of access through inefficiency and corruption. Build your own compound to process ore. But then you need soldiers to protect the compound. Next stage?

8 December 2013 07:53  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Passive resistance?

http://www.censorbugbear.org/black-racism/terrorism/nelson-mandela-the-bombing-record

Bit more balance please.

Isn't the greater story to admit he was a terrorist with blood on his hands who, whilst jailed for his many crimes, came to understand that violence was not the way.

Also give much more weight to F W de Klerk who actually made it all possible.

8 December 2013 09:23  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Why, Mr. Arabin, how lovely to have you joining our little congregation here. But what is this? You are forbidding me to speak in the Cloisters for fear of damaging the fabric? Goodness! As Dean, you have the right: as the bishop's wife, I have the ear of the bishop and I think you will find that counts for something. There was no such nonsense when Dean Trefoil was in charge, I must say. As for whether the Bishop is going to attend the funeral of this African chap, I have forbidden it. Bishop Fontwater of Littlehampton is going, I believe - as is Dr. Spacely-Trellis (living proof that you CAN have too much of a good thing). Give my regards to dear Mary...

8 December 2013 10:51  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Roy, one is not 'one'...one is Mrs Proudie...and yes, I do think that comparing Mandela to Christ is puke-worthy...clearly you do not.

8 December 2013 11:03  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

And I think you'll find I'm right.

8 December 2013 11:05  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Jesus Mandela’s considered opinions on Israel, Jews, Palestine, violence, Iran’s Islamic Revolution and Yasser Arafat are neatly gathered together here.

8 December 2013 11:47  
Blogger Francis Arabin said...

Mrs Proudie, we all know that the Bishop of Bevindon will do anything to further ingratiate himself with the current ministry. I regret to say that Miss Bold is no more with us - indeed she has, in the wake of Mr Newman's much touted apostasy, converted to that foul Irish sect, the Ember-day Bryanites, which has many missions among the (click)sas and the Cthulhus of Southern Africa, and, naturally, the Cameroons of Notting Hill.

8 December 2013 13:16  
Blogger Len said...

One man`s' freedom fighter' is another man`s' terrorist' I suppose it depends on which side of the fence you are standing.
BUT there is only one Jesus Christ and it certainly isn`t Nelson Mandela or anyone else down here.

8 December 2013 14:04  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Ernsty,

My final post @ 7 December 2013 23:25 to Carl/Explorer :

"It doesn't matter. In the old days I'd provide a line by line response to what you've both written, but not now. See you around sometime in the future."

The previous discussion was reasonably robust, but I can't see,however, how that post was a "storm off the Blog in a hissy fit strop" .

(if you are referring to one I deleted soon after I wrote it, well, that was hardly storming off, although it was a bit of a ranty post, hence why I deleted it,wouldn't want to make the angry men here any more angry).

Now if Carl wants me to answer the questions he's put to me at 7 December 2013 23:02 then I am happy to do so, to him on his blog, but not here.

8 December 2013 14:19  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Hannah

You as much as called me a racist, a hypocrite and a fraud on this very public board - and all without substantiation. You simply threw out a list on non-sequitors and claimed they all followed from what I said. Answer the question here in front of these before whom you accused me or do not answer it at all.

carl

8 December 2013 15:15  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hmmm. A rather unholy trinity there Carl – no wonder you are upset...

{Snigger}

8 December 2013 15:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

The charges themselves don't upset me all that much. That's why I didn't spend any time addressing them. But the refusal to back up a public charge in the same public forum in which the charge was made - that annoys me. Except for the "I will answer there but not here" nonsense, I would have let the whole matter rest.

carl

8 December 2013 15:47  
Blogger Hannah said...

Carl,

I am shocked by that response because you could have said that yesterday and we could have sorted this out then. I had no idea you had been so offended.

The reason why I offered to post to yourself (I'd e-mail if I could) was to give specific consideration to the issues you'd raised at 7 December 2013 23:02, which was the final comment addressed to me until now (I'd note that it could be implied that you were also more or less calling my a hypocrite viz Israel and South Africa on that post!).

If you wish me to tackle the suggestion I called you a racist, hypocrite and fraud, HERE then OK with me, because they are a series of separate issues to what I was going to post to you in other places.

For clarity and so I know what it is I am trying to defend myself against, I am assuming that you are referring to my posts at 7 December 2013 22:12 and 7 December 2013 22:43?

If that is the case the I am happy to explain to you 22.12 in a separate post (noting that the conversation moved on from there and you didn't raise this with me at the time).

As for 22.43, that was not directed at you at all. It was rather, a summarising of the conversation here. If I had or have problems with what you are saying I'm bold enough to say so, I hope. In discussion when one refers 'to some people' it is 1) A way of debating without personalising the matters and 2) Because various people are taking onto the same thing. I hope that this clarifies that post.

Coming up is my explanation to you of the other post.

8 December 2013 15:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

That reminds one Carl. Re last night. This blog site demonstrates a phenomenon whereby even though a response is logged at the time it arrives, it might not show for a minute or several, but when it does, it appears correctly in the chronological order.

8 December 2013 16:01  
Blogger Hannah said...

Carl,

Looking back on this thread I really don't think that there are any 'charges' for me to answer. I believe that you have decided I've said something and put two and two together to make 5.

I did not call you a racist, you've inferred that. However for the record, no I do not believe you are a racist and I apologize if you feel that way.

Are you a hypocrite? Again I cannot see that I called you one. For the record I do not think that you are and I apologise for the apparent wrong I've caused you there.

As for being a fraud, the same reply as above.

Turning to my post at 22.12.

You need to step away from the personal and attach to the logical frame of argument. I posed a series of questions which were aimed at the logic of the argument, not the person behind that argument (yourself). A kind of 'devil's advocate' series of questions I'd say.

Grouping these questions together, they were:

1)Basically you think that Apartheid was a good thing? So segregation in the deep south was OK too? That the civil rights movement was wrong?

2) You don't see that your own country is a multi-culture and multi-religious and multi ethnic society?

3) Oh and all of your stuff against Inspector was really just about arguing rather than any genuine belief in racial equality and that when it came to the civil war, you shouldn't have fought it because the principals of the South were just and correct?

You see Carl all of the above questions and sub questions would seem undermine the logic of your argument to some degree.

You replied to me and said that you agreed Apartheid was not a 'good' thing. But you are equally critical of what has replaced that- a multi-cultural society, which was automatically doomed to failure.

So we get to question 2, in other words is America a multi-cultural society? The answer is yes. So if America is such, the counter argument is 'why is it a bad idea for South Africa today?' and by implication of what you'd said 'Is America going to be a bloodbath as its ethnic groups (armed to the teeth) start to fall out?' Can you see how his logic train causes problems in your argument and is more than just 'non-sequitors'.

As to question 3, it was a genuine question. I can see now what the answer actually is, so thank you for that.

8 December 2013 16:25  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Johnny Rottenborough

Here's what Lord Sacks, Emeritus Chief Rabbi, said:

“Today we mourn the loss of one of the world’s great leaders, the man who was our generation’s mentor in forgiveness and reconciliation.

Nelson Mandela lived and breathed the politics of hope. It takes courage to hope, and even greater courage to lead a people on the long walk to freedom. Because of him not only South Africa but the world is a better place.

The greatest tribute we can pay him is to be inspired by his memory and lifted by his ideals. Let now be a moment for a new birth of hope in some of the many conflict zones throughout the world. We offer our sincere condolences to his family.

May they find comfort in the knowledge that his spirit will live on. He permanently enlarged the horizon of human hope.”


And South Africa's Chief Rabbi, Warren Goldstein said this:

"South African Jews were with Mandela as fellow liberation fighters and as lawyers defending him at the Rivonia trial, as visitors during his long and lonely years on Robben Island, and then in assisting in the exciting years of building the new South Africa.

And so we mourn his loss together with our fellow South Africans and with all people across the world. Our hearts are, however, filled with gratitude for the unique blessing of his great life which we in South Africa were especially privileged to experience so closely.

Judaism teaches that the best way to pay tribute to those who have passed on is to do good deeds in their honour. The greatest tribute we can pay is to live like Mandela, in accordance with the values he practiced and taught – values of human dignity, forgiveness, kindness, courage, tenacity, strength, honesty and integrity.

Let us all resolve to follow President Mandela’s inspiring moral legacy and let us commit to living in accordance with the values he taught us in the most eloquent and powerful sermon of all - his life."

8 December 2013 16:35  
Blogger Hannah said...

Carl,

Reply to yours of 7 December 2013 23:02 :

1)'And before you sniff at me about the limits of multiculturalism, you remember all those times I have made the exact same argument about a multicultural state in Palestine'

The Republic of South Africa that the ANC inherited was more or less left politically intact as a geographical entity. There was no suggestion at the time of transition from Apartheid that South Africa would be split back up to The Cape Colony, Transvaal, Orange Free State, Zululand etc, in the same sense that other countries were split up after the cold war (The Soviet Union, for example). Perhaps that might work?

By contrast,the suggestion put forward with a unitary Palestine isn't being taken seriously by anyone; neither Arabs or Jews actually want to create a single multicultural state in Palestine. To be sure there are those who want to have a state called Palestine, but one without any Jews in it.

2)'You have never groused at me when I say Arab dominance would result in Jewish slaughter'.

No I haven't 'groused' on you, because I agree with you, it is not a serious solution to the middle east peace process. It might end up being a solution, but only as a result of a major defeat for Israel in a war.

3) 'You have supported me. Why now do you accuse me like you have?'

Yes I have and yes I do support you in much of what you say here. Accuse you, no. I have sought to explain that in further posts above.

8 December 2013 16:50  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Hannah:

Hello again. I'll try to make my two points clearer.

1. Is a mouse big? Yes, compared with a flea; no compared with a cat. Is a millionaire rich? No, compared with a billionaire.

In South-African terms, whites as a generality are still rich (despite a million now below the poverty line). But at R16 to the pound (and rising: once there were 2 to the pound), they probably cannot afford to sell up and move: not to Europe, anyway.

2. Assume that, for financial reasons, the bulk of the remaining whites cannot leave. What will happen to them?

Most Westerners will see that as a non-question. Why should anything happen to them: other than having to compete on equal terms with everyone else, rather than from a vantage of privilege.

Mandela was a restraining influence. With him gone, could hatreds and resentment break out? Could there be genocide?

Hopefully not, but Carl's point is that, if it does, the West will not intervene to stop it. I fear he might be right.

8 December 2013 17:30  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I deleted it,wouldn't want to make the angry men here any more angry

Man,you deleted all of your stupid posts pretending to be off to a Mandela tribute night dancing to 1970s Bee Gee music. You knew you could not possibly post back here in any of you guises after having exposed yourself as a warped, lying fraud.

8 December 2013 17:48  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hello Explorer,

Thanks for that post to me, however, my return to this thread was not to engage further in the debate here, but to provide answers to Carl. I have now done so. I leave it to him to decide what he wants to do with that, as far as I am concerned I have apologised for any misunderstandings on matters he has been upset ad angry about. I will leave matters there.

8 December 2013 18:27  
Blogger Hannah said...

Dreadnaught,

Darling,that post is still up there, actually.

If it is your desire that you do not wish me to post, then you need not worry. I appreciate I've said this before, but I really mean it today. This is for reasons that have nothing to do with you, but everything to do with the fact the reasons I had when first coming on here a couple of years ago- trying to figure out Christianity and my sexuality- have been more or less answered. I feel that I've been able to discuss and debate issues here with quite a few good people, even if we have had unfortunate and erroneous arguments along the way.

I will say, though, that I never did get your bitter, angry and insulting attacks on me throughout the past couple of years, which were never followed up by an explanation or anything and to me you seemed to be a bit obsessed about it if you don't mind my observing? That does not do you any credit.

PS-For the record and for the final and last time, I AM NOT DODO or whatever ID's it is you think I am.

Reflect on that, before making accusations about people, especially as you post here using the name of a guitar and look like some kind of rusted man and yet you constantly witchunt against others writing under and Nome De Plume?!

Strange to say the least.

Shalom.

8 December 2013 18:45  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Happy Jack (16:35)—Regarding Sacks’ trite comment about South Africa being a better place, this website carries a Port Elizabeth Herald story about ‘xenophobic violence’. There is a YouTube video of the incident, which I have no intention of watching. Those who wish to see what Sacks’ better South Africa looks like should search for:

warning graphic content | south africa: somalian stoned to death

8 December 2013 19:39  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Explorer @ 17.30, you pose some very interesting questions.

One option for SA whites in the event of a complete breakdown in the authority of the state would be to establish a series of defensive perimeters. Doing this of course requires a well-equipped paramilitary force, something that may be impossible within the scope of SA firearms legislation. Seizing control of a major arsenal or military facility might therefore be an important precursor. The whites in Rhodesian never numbered more than 160,000, but there are still four million in SA. The German General Staff worked on the basis that one million people can find the manpower for two divisions, thus the SA whites could raise eight. One might be enough.

Without doubt, the Afrikaners would not go down without putting up a hell of a fight. In doing so they would receive a great deal of private support from within other western nations. Western governments would naturally prefer to avoid any suggestion of racism and would remain craven.

8 December 2013 19:39  
Blogger The Explorer said...

bluedog:

Thank you; we seem to concur on many issues.

The official Western media narrative is that there could have been a crisis, but Mandela averted it.

Averted it permanently; or delayed it? That is the question unaskable in enlightened company: a good way not to be invited to another chattering-class dinner party.

I shall watch the South-African exchange rate with attention over the coming year.

8 December 2013 20:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

With Mandela out of the way, and Marxism in Africa a dead duck, put your money on the aspiring and growing black middle class, who incidentally live in gated and secure communities just like the whites. Expect a loose coalition between them as they deal severely with the criminal population that is the ordinary black South African...

8 December 2013 20:43  

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